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  1. #11
    Senior Member Tacblades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamystic View Post
    Interesting topic. I was just contemplating almost exactly along these lines the other day for making a new hammock for my 6 mo old. I was thinking of a noseeum mesh pocket like you described, integrated into the hammock with perhaps a knotty mod type elastic suspension in the mesh to draw the insulation closer to the hammock if needed. Might even work as a pad pocket? Make the pocket out of a breathable waterproof fabric and it might serve as a quilt protector as well?

    I understand the concerns about compression, fiddle factors, and the possibility for the insulation to puddle to the center but it would certainly be convenient to have a hammock that I could insulate by tossing in any blanket, etc that I happen to have lying around. In my opinion, a little insulation compression would be better than cold air seeping into a gap. The idea of a little loft up "pillow top" insulation on the top side of an underquilt is another good idea for the cold air gap that I'd never thought of.

    Tacblades, I'm very curious to see what you mock up. I've been meaning to put something together but have been totally preoccupied with another project and haven't gotten to it. Maybe this weekend I'll try to see what I can do.

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    Cool what i can never except is that what exists today is the only way. For me there is always innovative and many different ways just waiting to be discovered.

    This might not work but its just another step on the road.

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  2. #12
    Senior Member Dynamystic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tacblades View Post
    Cool what i can never except is that what exists today is the only way. For me there is always innovative and many different ways just waiting to be discovered.

    This might not work but its just another step on the road.

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    True that!

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  3. #13
    HandyRandy's Avatar
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    Expanding on my topper idea, perhaps simply using an 50° insulated hammock with a conventional UQ in addition would serve the same purpose?

  4. #14
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Very interesting topic-and great for general discussion of ideas and concepts- but, OK, here comes Mr. "slow to catch on"!

    Except for synthetic quilts, aren't all quilts a "loft up design"? A synthetic quilt –at least with sheets of insulation such as Climashield-has the sheet of insulation sewn to the inner/upper layer of an UQ(at least in the ones I have had like my old synthetic Yeti). Then, after that quilt is removed from it's stuff sack and hung under the hammock, the insulation will expand downwards, away from the hammock and the inner(or upper if you prefer) UQ shell, down towards the outer- and normally much looser(if a differential cut at least) outer(which is also the downward) shell. So, as far a I can tell, this type of UQ "expands down".

    But I assume we are discussing down UQs, correct? Or maybe not, I guess the OP does not actually say "down". But that is certainly the type of UQ or TQ that is mainly discussed around here.

    So if we are primarily discussing down UQs, it seems to me we are dealing with a "loft up" situation. When you remove your down under quilt or top quilt from it's stuff sack after the days hike, the down is maximally compressed, and when you hang it under the hammock, gravity will pull the Down towards the ground, where are it will be perhaps 1/4 in. of loft, or who knows maybe one inch, and then it will proceed to puff up. It will expand in an upwards direction 1 or more inches depending on rating. It will be" up lofting". This will be the case with either a down top quilt or under quilt. Seems to me like in all cases the down will loft upward from what ever surface it might be laying upon.

    In fact I have started a couple of threads relating to this general topic over the years. Because I had a question about- when it comes to handling moisture(dampness–humidity– Fog– body vapor that condenses), and if there is actually any advantage to synthetic in such conditions( a debatable subject, though I think there is ), might it have even more advantages with an under quilt? Because unless there is plenty of over stuffing, it seems natural to me that down would loft to a lesser degree in damp conditions, and therefore might not be able to Loft up enough to make contact with the top of the baffle and the upper shell and my back. Creating a very cold gap. This would not be near as much of a potential problem with a top quilt, because even if some loft was lost, it would not cause a potential gap since the down–though maybe not as thick as it was before the dampness–would still be laying down in contact with your body, more or less. Also not much of a problem with Climashield, since even if it had lost some loft from moisture, it would not have to loft up to reach my back, since it is already sewn to the quilts inner shell which I have pulled snugly against my back with the suspension. Now it is simply trying to- with the aid of gravity- "loft down" away from my back, but still always in contact with my back.

    Of course, even if that is a possibility, that is one of the things over stuffing is meant to overcome. But on the other hand, more over stuffing means more dollars and more weight and more volume. The latter two being the main reasons to use down in the first place.

    So those variables are some concerns or questions I might have regarding this subject. And of course on might just been totally missing the concept, or the point, just not understanding something.

    On the other hand, your idea about some form of ultralight under hammock being used to suspend the insulation is an idea that has had some pretty good support in the past. For example, I(and perhaps another half dozen or dozen folks) have successfully added various forms of insulation into what amounts to(sort of, more or less) an under hammock. I.E. The undercover of the Hennessey Hammock Super Shelter(HHSS). This form of hammock insulation in its basic form, consist of a 2 ounce space blanket, which lies on top of an open cell foam(very flexible) pad. This pad has a very wimpy suspension of its own which holds the pad up against the hammock. However, this shock cord is very thin, and there is more elastic inside of the third part, called the under cover. This under Cover also gives more support to the pad holding it up against my back(In the hammock of course) snugly without any apparent compression. This system has always been good for me somewhere in the 30s. But when I want to go lower( my lowest was toasty warm at 6F), I have just added all manner of insulation down into the undercover, down below the main pad. Most often unworn clothing. A fleece jacket combined with a down vest has been a favorite. But I have even put a synthetic sleeping bag in there(producing some serious insulation, HOT), though the weight had a tendency to pull things too far down(in that case I had to tighten the suspension up more). The elastics in this undercover are just a little too strong for down used alone, and tends to compress it, though not all the way. Still no problem for me, because there are a couple of tricks to reduce this tension to provide a space just right for down to loft right on up into contact with the occupied hammock. I normally use something synthetic which is less compressible than 850 down, and sometimes what I use is a fleece jacket which is hardly compressible at all, which also keeps the elastic from compressing my down vest too much. This has always worked like a charm for me over the last 10+ years, though admittedly it took a bit of experimenting during those first couple of years when I didn't really understand some of the concepts involved.

    So your concept of "a nano noseeum hammock that is suspended below the main hammock with a gap for the underquilt" certainly has some merit. Although some- or a lot of- experimentation to work at the details and the variables will probably be required. Experiment and let us know how it works!

  5. #15
    Senior Member Tacblades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBob58 View Post
    Very interesting topic-and great for general discussion of ideas and concepts- but, OK, here comes Mr. "slow to catch on"!

    Except for synthetic quilts, aren't all quilts a "loft up design"? A synthetic quilt –at least with sheets of insulation such as Climashield-has the sheet of insulation sewn to the inner/upper layer of an UQ(at least in the ones I have had like my old synthetic Yeti). Then, after that quilt is removed from it's stuff sack and hung under the hammock, the insulation will expand downwards, away from the hammock and the inner(or upper if you prefer) UQ shell, down towards the outer- and normally much looser(if a differential cut at least) outer(which is also the downward) shell. So, as far a I can tell, this type of UQ "expands down".

    But I assume we are discussing down UQs, correct? Or maybe not, I guess the OP does not actually say "down". But that is certainly the type of UQ or TQ that is mainly discussed around here.

    So if we are primarily discussing down UQs, it seems to me we are dealing with a "loft up" situation. When you remove your down under quilt or top quilt from it's stuff sack after the days hike, the down is maximally compressed, and when you hang it under the hammock, gravity will pull the Down towards the ground, where are it will be perhaps 1/4 in. of loft, or who knows maybe one inch, and then it will proceed to puff up. It will expand in an upwards direction 1 or more inches depending on rating. It will be" up lofting". This will be the case with either a down top quilt or under quilt. Seems to me like in all cases the down will loft upward from what ever surface it might be laying upon.

    In fact I have started a couple of threads relating to this general topic over the years. Because I had a question about- when it comes to handling moisture(dampness–humidity– Fog– body vapor that condenses), and if there is actually any advantage to synthetic in such conditions( a debatable subject, though I think there is ), might it have even more advantages with an under quilt? Because unless there is plenty of over stuffing, it seems natural to me that down would loft to a lesser degree in damp conditions, and therefore might not be able to Loft up enough to make contact with the top of the baffle and the upper shell and my back. Creating a very cold gap. This would not be near as much of a potential problem with a top quilt, because even if some loft was lost, it would not cause a potential gap since the down–though maybe not as thick as it was before the dampness–would still be laying down in contact with your body, more or less. Also not much of a problem with Climashield, since even if it had lost some loft from moisture, it would not have to loft up to reach my back, since it is already sewn to the quilts inner shell which I have pulled snugly against my back with the suspension. Now it is simply trying to- with the aid of gravity- "loft down" away from my back, but still always in contact with my back.

    Of course, even if that is a possibility, that is one of the things over stuffing is meant to overcome. But on the other hand, more over stuffing means more dollars and more weight and more volume. The latter two being the main reasons to use down in the first place.

    So those variables are some concerns or questions I might have regarding this subject. And of course on might just been totally missing the concept, or the point, just not understanding something.

    On the other hand, your idea about some form of ultralight under hammock being used to suspend the insulation is an idea that has had some pretty good support in the past. For example, I(and perhaps another half dozen or dozen folks) have successfully added various forms of insulation into what amounts to(sort of, more or less) an under hammock. I.E. The undercover of the Hennessey Hammock Super Shelter(HHSS). This form of hammock insulation in its basic form, consist of a 2 ounce space blanket, which lies on top of an open cell foam(very flexible) pad. This pad has a very wimpy suspension of its own which holds the pad up against the hammock. However, this shock cord is very thin, and there is more elastic inside of the third part, called the under cover. This under Cover also gives more support to the pad holding it up against my back(In the hammock of course) snugly without any apparent compression. This system has always been good for me somewhere in the 30s. But when I want to go lower( my lowest was toasty warm at 6F), I have just added all manner of insulation down into the undercover, down below the main pad. Most often unworn clothing. A fleece jacket combined with a down vest has been a favorite. But I have even put a synthetic sleeping bag in there(producing some serious insulation, HOT), though the weight had a tendency to pull things too far down(in that case I had to tighten the suspension up more). The elastics in this undercover are just a little too strong for down used alone, and tends to compress it, though not all the way. Still no problem for me, because there are a couple of tricks to reduce this tension to provide a space just right for down to loft right on up into contact with the occupied hammock. I normally use something synthetic which is less compressible than 850 down, and sometimes what I use is a fleece jacket which is hardly compressible at all, which also keeps the elastic from compressing my down vest too much. This has always worked like a charm for me over the last 10+ years, though admittedly it took a bit of experimenting during those first couple of years when I didn't really understand some of the concepts involved.

    So your concept of "a nano noseeum hammock that is suspended below the main hammock with a gap for the underquilt" certainly has some merit. Although some- or a lot of- experimentation to work at the details and the variables will probably be required. Experiment and let us know how it works!
    Very interesting.
    Yes i am talking about down
    I make my own quilts with 900fp down and have about 3 to 4 in of loft.
    And normally for me its hammock in sub zero or about -10 deg c

    Interesting setup with the pad and sheet etc is there any pics anywhere or keywords to search for ?

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    ..........................................
    Tacblades

  6. #16
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    A little bit off topic but I've been thinking for a while that the best way to insulate under you is to make the UQ integrated into the hammock. So the hammock is actually the top layer of the UQ. Then have a differential cut lower layer. The down then lofts to fill all the space. Careful use of baffles and stuffing will stop from having gaps in insulation. You would have to use calendared fabric for hammock.

    The only drawback is UQs are no longer interchangable for different seasons. But a summer and winter set will be not much more expensive than seperate UQs.

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  7. #17
    Senior Member Tacblades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mileage View Post
    A little bit off topic but I've been thinking for a while that the best way to insulate under you is to make the UQ integrated into the hammock. So the hammock is actually the top layer of the UQ. Then have a differential cut lower layer. The down then lofts to fill all the space. Careful use of baffles and stuffing will stop from having gaps in insulation. You would have to use calendared fabric for hammock.

    The only drawback is UQs are no longer interchangable for different seasons. But a summer and winter set will be not much more expensive than seperate UQs.

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    A few people have made these and there are commercial ones. They work but you are fixed to a particular insulation for a specifoc hammock so a bit tricky for all seasons.

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  8. #18
    Senior Member BananaHammock's Avatar
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    Forgive me for not reading th entire thread completely but can’t we test this theory with a differential cut quilt hung upside down so the smaller side is the bottom and it only has room to lift up?
    Get lost in the woods and find yourself again. A vacation,to me, is working with your hands and surviving because of the fruits of your labor. In the business world I teach;in the natural world I learn.

  9. #19
    Senior Member m00ch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tacblades View Post
    The Up Loft Underquilt (ULU)

    Need your collective brains on this one, its a crazy sacrificial lamb of an idea that I want to throw to the lions.

    Or another simpler way could be like a section of the hammock has a nano noseeum part underneath it with an adjustable gap connected to the edge seam of the hammock, so no suspension needed and lighter easier to adjust. This would also automatically conform to the shape of the hammock with the person at a diagonal.

    Attachment 166131

    One advantage would be that the underquilt is then a much simpler design just a plain rectangle that sits there, so easy to change and also use other things like a old sleeping bag unzipped or other things that are just a rectangle of insulation. Or modular like maybe thin underquilts and different numbers of for different seasons. You could also get away with very thin fabric like membrane 7 as it will have no loads on it.
    So this is separating the suspension of the underquilt from the quilt itself.

    If I am reading this part correctly it may remove the one part of shock corded underquilts that I really don't like: the shockcord touching my head. But how do you tension the corners that are not touching your body and have floppy edges without an integrated bugnet? Those areas would let cold air in. Although if I am reading this incorrectly I still hope you can develop a way to get rid of the shockcord without the weight and bulk of a wooki.

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