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  1. #21
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdisgrace View Post
    concerning the concentration rates......after diluting Martins 10% strength permethrin to .05% and soaking and air drying my hiking clothes, I placed an ant inside my cap and it took 20 min. for the ant to die. Its a repellant not a contact killer. Mosquitoes being more sensitive won't even land on treated bugnets.
    .05% or .5%? The latter is recommended.

    Quote Originally Posted by cmoulder View Post
    As i mentioned elsewhere, some of my friends were using picaridin in the Pharaoh Wilderness (ADKs) and were nearly eaten alive. Even with 40% deet (Repel Max) we still got a few bites, but it was FAR better.
    I don't doubt you at all, but boy am I surprised. I hike mostly in bug infested areas of MS, or maybe AL, including swamps. Ever snce I switched from DEET to Permethrin treated clothes and gear often plus Picaridin on exposed skin, it has almost been as though I hike in a bug free zone, or maybe like it is dead of winter. Though admittedly I do wonder if recently they are becoming ( one or both) just slightly less effective. But only because at the beginning of this season I did find a tick on me, under my pants, attached to skin. And if memory serves, I was only using one or the other, not both(but I can't remember which) Probably- I'm guessing here- it was Picaridin on exposed skin only, in clothes that and not been treated since last fall. And I found this amazing: the tick(don't know how long it had gone undiscovered) appeared to have no blood in it(not swollen at all) and appeared to be dead. That's it, that is the only failure as far as bites or even skin contact that I am aware of in many years, and I was not using both.

    There was also this almost failure: back about Sept 2010, a buddy and his son from NC and I all went out to ID for a hike into some lakes in the Sawtooth Range. I advised him about the Pic and Perm and he treated all their gear and clothing with Perm and took 20% Picaridin for the skin as of course did I. I was wearing just a thin white layer of Merino wool LJ top as I cooked supper late in the day, and he warned that my back was covered with Mosquitoes. I had not even noticed them on my front end. I asked him if they seemed to be lighting and biting, he said they did not seem to be biting, and maybe were just hovering very close to my back, or making brief contact. He gave a couple of sprays from my Picaridin to my back, and they were gone. I was disappointed that they seemed unbothered by my treated shirt, but I got no bites. But since I had not even see them on the front end, I probably had some Pic already on my hands and face. Maybe it also means I simply failed to get a good enough spraying on the back of this very thin garment, which they could have easily bit through(open weave)? Or did the Perm simply fail to keep them from coming in very close to my back only? I don't know.

    But not only did I get no bites on my back, I had no bug net on this trip. Every night before bed I would cover all potentially exposed skin good with Pic, and of course I slept in treated clothing and hammock/PeaPod. Never heard a Mossy whining, and I had not a single bite from this trip. Same with by 2 buds. (but 1 had a netted HH) And we were swimming in the lakes! So I am shocked to hear about your friends! Are the Mossies/ticks different in different parts of the country? We certainly have plenty of them down here, and their were plenty in Idaho, but are they some how dif? Did your friends use 20% Picaridin? Were their clothes also treated with Permethrin?

    Quote Originally Posted by OneClick View Post
    I'm liking the picaridin lotion so far, but haven't been in any hot zones to give it a major test yet. But combined with permethrin, I felt I was really keeping them away.
    It works fantastic for me down here in MS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chesapeake View Post
    You all know my thoughts on this issue..... I'd pour 10 gallons of gasoline on myself while smoking a cigarette if the gas kept the BLOOD SUCKING TICKS, BLOOD SUCKING SPIDERS AND FACE EATING RACOONS away lol. Get rid of the headache by cutting off the head is what I say lol, I'll deal with the side effects if I'm fact there are any later. I treat my boots, gaitors and pack with 100% DEET, everything else and skin with Permethrin + Picardin and have never had any problems. I even ~ carefully ~ spray it on my wife and kids and their gear/legs/arms too.... So far we are side effect and disease free! I did find out last week that nymph Lone Star ticks are so fast that they will crawl from boot to upper leg well before the chemicals kick in. The ones that got stuck under my laces ,in the mesh of my boots, on my gaitors did all die after a few mins , and the few that did make it up my leg died before they could latch on completely. I'd say it worked...... and it wasn't 2 or 3 ticks either, no it was more like 200-300. No joke. Tigglet and Jellyfish had the same amounts on them as well.
    Where on earth were you that you got that many ticks? Even with all that treatment? Have you considered treating your boots, gators and pack with Permethrin rather than DEET? That(Perm) is what I do. So far so good.

    Are all of you guys making sure to use 20% Picaridin? I have seen it in much lower concentrations, less effective. They also claim the lotion works a good bit longer, 12 rather than 8 hours.
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 07-28-2018 at 11:21.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBob58 View Post
    ...my back was covered with Mosquitoes. I had not even noticed them on my front end. I asked him if they seemed to be lighting and biting, he said they did not seem to be biting, and maybe were just hovering very close to my back, or making brief contact. He gave a couple of sprays from my Picaridin to my back, and they were gone. I was disappointed that they seemed unbothered by my treated shirt, but I got no bites. But since I had not even see them on the front end, I probably had some Pic already on my hands and face. Maybe it also means I simply failed to get a good enough spraying on the back of this very thin garment, which they could have easily bit through(open weave)? Or did the Perm simply fail to keep them from coming in very close to my back only? I don't know.
    There is a difference between Permethrin and Picaridin. Permethrin is an insecticide while Picaridin is a repellent. Although Permethrin may also act as a repellent for some insects, that's not its primary job.

  3. #23
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scrope View Post
    There is a difference between Permethrin and Picaridin. Permethrin is an insecticide while Picaridin is a repellent. Although Permethrin may also act as a repellent for some insects, that's not its primary job.
    Yes, I know, and I believe Perm does also act as a repellent, based on my experience that I rarely even see insects anywhere near my treated clothes, or even near me when I am wearing treated clothes. Of course, I often(but not always) also have exposed skin treated with Picaridin, so it's possible that is acting as a strong enough repellent so that I don't even see or hear insects close to me.

    This case of the mosquitoes swarming my back is the only exception to that "don't even see them" since I started using this combo years ago. Of course, there was no Picaridin repellent on my back, only the Perm treated shirt. Maybe the most likely explanation is that I failed to spray that back side of that shirt adequately with Permethrin before leaving home, hence they felt brave enough to come in mighty close. That is the only time on that trip or any other that I have had any close encounters with the Mossies. Still, no bites. Not a one on that multiday trip, and I did not even sleep under a bug net.

  4. #24
    joe_guilbeau's Avatar
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    Thought that I might update this thread on the efficacy of DEET and Picaridin, which are the two best overall insect repellents on the market today.

    This is not my statement, it is the statement within the following article from THE UNIVERSITY OF MISSISSIPPI:

    “No natural repellent currently on the market is as effective as the two best synthetic repellents, DEET and picaridin,” said Stephen Duke, ARS research leader of the Natural Products Utilization Research unit. “Finding a highly effective, all-natural insect repellent is important to many members of the public.”

    USDA and NCNPR Partner to Create Natural Insect Repellents
    May 3, 2017

    By Sydney Slotkin DuPriest

    https://pharmacy.olemiss.edu/media/2...ct-repellents/


    There are some research results that indicate that fatty acids extracted from coconuts are yielding promising results, and no, smearing virgin expelled organic oil is not the same thing, although it may act as a bear attractant.

  5. #25
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    Looks like the science has already been well covered, so I won't break out my list of actual peer-reviewed references on DEET, picaridin, and permethrin, as well as tick-borne diseases and their treatments - the gold standard of treatment for Lyme, RMSF, erlichosis, and relapsing fever (IDSA - Infectious Disease Society of America - guidelines) is doxycycline 200 mg twice a day for 14-21 days. This is a very large dose, and doxycycline has some pretty unpleasant side effects. Trust me - you do NOT want tick-borne disease.

    That said, on the "natural" vs "chemical debate, I offer these thoughts:

    Everything you eat, breathe, and are is made up of chemicals.

    There is nothing more natural than being killed and eaten by a bear.
    Medical professional, semi-professional Scouter, aspiring layabout.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocTheo View Post

    Everything you eat, breathe, and are is made up of chemicals.

    There is nothing more natural than being killed and eaten by a bear.
    It looks as though Organic Coconut fatty acids in the Medium-Chain-Triglycerides is soon to be patented for topic application insecticides, and by all accounts lasts for 4-6 days.

    Interesting development.

  7. #27
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    The only study I found that indicated MCT coconut oil to be superior to DEET as a repellent was a single study by Zhu et. al., in 2018. Their results have not been duplicated; which makes that study less than evidentiary.
    Medical professional, semi-professional Scouter, aspiring layabout.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocTheo View Post
    The only study I found that indicated MCT coconut oil to be superior to DEET as a repellent was a single study by Zhu et. al., in 2018. Their results have not been duplicated; which makes that study less than evidentiary.
    I was intrigued by the collaboration of the Natural Products Utilization Research Unit at USDA and the National Center for Natural Products Research (NCNPR) at the University of Mississippi School of Pharmacy where they are looking to nature to develop environmentally safe chemicals to manage pests.

    So, I phoned Ali Abbas on Dec 9th @ the NCNPR to inquire about their research, if you are interested in contacting him, I have his number (1-662-915-xxxx ).

    Mr. Abbas confirmed that the 2018 Zhu study was a stepping stone. There was a vague mention of a patent application making its way through the system, and I am hoping that a collaborative partnership with a vender can be realized.

    In the ensuing period until that achievement is realized, it is 100% DEET sprayed onto a plastic bath loofahs, to then apply to polyester T-shirts and polyester trousers and polyester socks.

    I pulled Mr. Abbas' name from this public relations blog:

    https://pharmacy.olemiss.edu/media/2...ct-repellents/

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