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  1. #11
    Senior Member m00ch's Avatar
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    I have recently acquired a DCF tarp from Hammock gear in camo and these are my first impressions when I received it: WOW this thing is light and WOW this thing does not pack small. I used it this weekend and can't say it is the best thing since sliced bread but don't dislike it either, there are pros and cons to everything. Your original post was about the cons so here is what I noticed. The rain was loud like being in a pole shed with metal roof as opposed to shingles. You can hear both but it is a sharp noise. Also, I knew exactly the minute that daybreak started. I don't love it or hate it.

    I agree with Kitsapcowboy: "Getting your priorities straight makes all the difference in deciding whether Cuben is right for you. For some, it's the only way to go, but I would argue that CF is not the ultimate hiking solution for everyone out there."

  2. #12
    Senior Member kitsapcowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Fowler View Post
    If you're into DIY, I've seen very little on how to make your own Dyneema tarps. Haven't looked, and it's probably out there, but not as readily available as, say kitsapcowboy's ongoing saga chronicling the innovate use and abuse of Xenon Sil...
    Excellent summary and comments all around, JF.

    On this last point, there have been a few good posts and tutorials here on HF discussing best DIY practices for outfoor gear made from Dyneema Composite Fabric (DCF AKA the fabric formerly known as "Cuben Fiber") -- some in the DIY Stickies section -- and there are others on sites like Backpacking Light and YouTube, but I think the reasons for the relative lack of DIY Cuben Fiber tarp projects are threefold:

    1) The raw materials -- fabric, tape, priming and bonding agents -- are all expensive
    2) The methods for working with DCF are difficult, demanding, and time-consuming compared to sewing conventional fabric
    3) The cost vs. benefit of buying vendor-made items instead of DIY often seems reasonable

    When DCF is $34 per yard, you've never worked with it, and any errors you make are likely to be unrecoverable, DIY experimentation can be squelched -- and suddenly paying $200 to $400 for a tarp or $600 to $900 for a ready-made tent doesn't seem like such a bad idea.

    I think the key to DIY with DCF is to prototype with inexpensive materials first, respecting the unique properties, characteristics, dimensions, and necessary construction methods of the Dyneema, and then refine the DIY design to make it as simple and cost-effective as possible -- before rendering it in Dyneema fabric.

    That said, with some kind help from Dutch, I am currently working on my first-ever DIY DCF tarp project, following these principles. I hope to unveil it here on HF in the next week or so if all goes well, and a detailed step-by-step DIY construction tutorial will be available in the Articles section at Dutchware Gear soon thereafter...

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  3. #13
    Senior Member cmoulder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Fowler View Post
    LOL, I suspect that many, if not most of the experienced members around here - even the die-hard CF enthusiasts - would not only agree with you but also "would argue that ADD ANYTHING YOU WANT HERE is not the ultimate hiking solution for everyone out there" *. Another amazing thing about this forum - the "one true way" demagogues seem refreshingly absent. Even those convinced that they've found the perfect solution - for them - often clarify that it's not necessarily the best for everyone. And instead of futile debates about "what's the best", people post useful information about tradeoffs, pros and cons, and encourage people to find what's best for them. Hike your own hike. Great stuff.



    * except, perhaps, "staying off the ground if at all possible" ...
    Nothing wrong with having multiple tarps and choosing the best one for the expected conditions.

    I might take a teensy little asym if little or no rain is expected. Why take a tarp at all if it isn't going to rain? Because there are pine needles and acorns and bird poop and other assorted flotsam and jetsam falling out of the canopy all the time.
    Five Basic Principles of Going Lighter (not me... the great Cam Honan of OZ)
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.” ~ Gen. George S Patton

  4. #14
    SilvrSurfr's Avatar
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    I've had an HG Winter Palace for about six years - looks as good as the day I bought it. It's the perfect tarp for me because it's less than 9 ounces. I've heard the complaints about cuben fiber but none of of them mean anything to me.

    Bulk - Fits in the outside pocket of my pack, just like my silnylon tarp does, so the bulk is a non-issue for me.
    Size - Roughly the same size as Warbonnet Superfly - a true 4-season tarp. I first bought a standard with doors, but it just wasn't big enough for me - I still got wet in blowing precipitation. I upgraded to the Winter Palace, and haven't gotten wet since.
    Translucency/opacity - I never, ever, lounge under my tarp during the day. "Mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun," but my tarp doesn't. I'm just not a lounger. I also have never had an issue with the full moon, and if somebody can see stars through cuben fiber, they have better eyesight than me. Some folks worry about privacy, but if you can see someone undressing under cuben fiber, you have an extremely vivid imagination!
    Loud - some people take this very seriously. You'll even find a YouTube video or two where people compare the "loudness" during rain. If it's louder, I definitely don't notice it.
    Durability - I've had my Winter Palace out in dime-sized hailstorms, snowstorms, torrential rain and 40 mph wind gusts - it passed the tests with flying colors. If ever get a puncture, I always have a repair kit. Some folks I know seem to have an issue with punctures on the cuben fiber tarps, but the repair is so easy, and you can hardly notice most of them.

    In summary, none of the complaints about cuben fiber even register with me. In six years of use, it's been one of my best investments. And I truly love the fact that it doesn't stretch, at all.
    "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." Ralph Waldo Emerson

  5. #15
    Senior Member arcana73's Avatar
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    In my opinion, and for my needs, its not worth the price. A silpoly tarp is light enough to get me through a 10-15 mile hike on a backpacking trip. It gives me shade when the sun is out, and its cheaper to replace if anything happens to it. Also the CF tarp is just to "loud" for me.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Tyroler Holzhacker's Avatar
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    One nice thing about non dyneema tarps is the ability to get printed tarps vs the standard green brown or camo tarp only available with dyneema material.

  7. #17
    Senior Member QFT's Avatar
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    I've owned one, and would again for backpacking. The only reason to purchase one is if you want to cut down on pack weight.

    It really has one big advantage (weight) and a bunch of small disadvantages which may or may not bother you.. It packs much larger than other materials. And it's loud when stuff hits it. And it's a bit translucent. And I worry about the durability/longevity a little bit. And it's expensive.

    If weight is a big deal to you, and you have the money, it's the best choice. If weight isn't that big of a deal, go straight to Sil Poly.

  8. #18
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilvrSurfr View Post
    I've had an HG Winter Palace for about six years - looks as good as the day I bought it. It's the perfect tarp for me because it's less than 9 ounces. I've heard the complaints about cuben fiber but none of of them mean anything to me. ...
    In summary, none of the complaints about cuben fiber even register with me. In six years of use, it's been one of my best investments. And I truly love the fact that it doesn't stretch, at all.
    FWIW, none of the points I made were intended to be complaints - just things to consider when someone is deciding what works for them. With the possible exception of an occasional desire to lounge in some shade, I suspect my preferences will be very similar to yours and I expect to eventually get a CF Winter Palace or something very similar for backpacking. Just feels a little silly to drop $500 on a tarp when I haven't actually done any backpacking since having kids and it won't get used much unless I get my son hooked on backpacking. Not to mention paying three times the cost of a SuperFly to save ten ounces, when it would be much more practical to just lose ten pounds (which I should be able to do several times over if I really wanted to). So I guess for me personally, there's at least one more reason *not* to buy a Dyneema tarp right now : I'm saving it as a reward - if I can get back in shape and get my son on the trail, then I can buy myself a "Palace" and feel good about. Besides, maybe by then Dutch or Kyle will be printing on Dyneema, and maybe I could have a nice cozy 4 season Dyneema tarp made to look like Bag End...

  9. #19
    SilvrSurfr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Fowler View Post
    Not to mention paying three times the cost of a SuperFly to save ten ounces, when it would be much more practical to just lose ten pounds (which I should be able to do several times over if I really wanted to).
    That kind of thinking might work if you're overweight, but I'm already at my ideal weight (165 lbs.). Back in 2014, I got the bright idea to drop down to 140 lbs. (my wedding day weight in 1990). Once I got down to 140 lbs., I suddenly realized that I would have to buy an entirely new wardrobe! You know how hard it is to find pants with a 28 or 29 inch waist? Sorry, I am not shopping in the kids section. I quickly went back to 165 lbs. and a 32-inch waist.

    So losing 10 ounces of tarp weight by going to cuben fiber was actually cheaper for me than losing 25 lbs. of body weight.
    "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." Ralph Waldo Emerson

  10. #20
    Member kroot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sqidmark View Post
    I'd suggest the CF Palace over the standard with doors as it has longer sides. It's about the same overall size as the Superfly. I have a standard with doors and no real complaints, but I would not hesitate trading up for the palace if money were no object.
    Quote Originally Posted by cmoulder View Post
    I'd offer that even the HG with doors won't completely close out the weather... it doesn't have the width to go all the way to the ground like the more 4th-season-specific 'winter palace' type tarps, or even the WB Superfly.
    Hmm, this is a good point. I hadn't thought about going up the palace, as the standard hex looked like it would be able to provide enough coverage for the vast majority of conditions, especially if paired with an underquilt protector. I think I still lean towards the hex, but the palace does have some tempting upsides for not much additional weight.

    Quote Originally Posted by James Fowler View Post
    • Aesthetics : with DutchWare's Print2Fabric and RipStopByTheRoll's OutdoorInk programs, you can get some really amazing looking tarps. I don't think that's offered for Dyneema yet? The only options I've seen are the raw white-ish solid, darker solid colors, and camo. Rumor has it that may change someday, but for now it looks like the "pretty" tarps are silnylon/poly/xenon...
    • Variety : related to cost, and doesn't technically matter "if the price was equal", but you may end up wanting different tarps for different requirements (seasons / anticipated weather conditions / solo vs tandem / group vs back-country / car camping vs backpacking...). If so, you can't just buy once. Also, if you haven't nailed down exactly what configuration works best for you for a given requirement, the cost of experimenting and changing your mind can go up substantially.
    • Packing size : I think I've read that Dyneema doesn't pack as tight as silnylon/poly? So while it's lighter, it can take up more volume in your pack? (not sure about that though)
    • Opacity / light : It appears that Dyneema - especially the lighter or uncolored versions - lets a lot more light through than other tarp fabrics. This can mean less privacy and more exposure to ambient light. Less shade during the day, and if you like it dark when you sleep, you might be surprised how noticeable a full moon overhead can be when it's nice out and you try going tarpless... I think other's have mentioned that a Dyneema tarp help doesn't help much blocking a full moon.
    • Noise : Others have mentioned that things like rainfall on a Dyneema tarp are "louder" than other fabrics - kinda like rain on a tin roof. Personally, that sounds like a bonus to me, but YMMV, HYOH.
    • DIY : If you're into DIY, I've seen very little on how to make your own Dyneema tarps. Haven't looked, and it's probably out there, but not as readily available as, say kitsapcowboy's ongoing saga chronicling the innovate use and abuse of Xenon Sil...
    Quote Originally Posted by m00ch View Post
    I have recently acquired a DCF tarp from Hammock gear in camo and these are my first impressions when I received it: WOW this thing is light and WOW this thing does not pack small. I used it this weekend and can't say it is the best thing since sliced bread but don't dislike it either, there are pros and cons to everything. Your original post was about the cons so here is what I noticed. The rain was loud like being in a pole shed with metal roof as opposed to shingles. You can hear both but it is a sharp noise. Also, I knew exactly the minute that daybreak started. I don't love it or hate it.
    I agree with Kitsapcowboy: "Getting your priorities straight makes all the difference in deciding whether Cuben is right for you. For some, it's the only way to go, but I would argue that CF is not the ultimate hiking solution for everyone out there."
    My priorities right now are to find one tarp that will be sufficient for the vast majority of conditions that I'm likely to encounter while backpacking. As such I'm prioritizing weight, flexibility, and the tarp's ability to provide shelter in a variety of conditions. Dyneema wins hands down on weight, a tarp with doors and pullouts provides a very large amount of flexibility and dyneema is impervious to wind/rain. The hex cut may not provide absolute coverage, but from what I can tell it definitely will protect you from most conditions, especially if you pitch it properly.

    The opacity isn't a big deal for me as I'll have to wear a sleepmask anyways up here. Likewise, I love the sound of rain on things, so I feel like that will be a plus for me. I've listened to some recordings on youtube and honestly I think it sounds pretty pleasant in the rain.

    With respect to packing size, anything that's smaller than the mammoth beast I'm packing around right now will be welcome. Shug's demo of the tarp shows it packing down pretty small (by my standards), definitely small enough to fit in my existing pack load.


    Quote Originally Posted by kitsapcowboy View Post
    On this last point, there have been a few good posts and tutorials here on HF discussing best DIY practices for outfoor gear made from Dyneema Composite Fabric (DCF AKA the fabric formerly known as "Cuben Fiber") -- some in the DIY Stickies section -- and there are others on sites like Backpacking Light and YouTube, but I think the reasons for the relative lack of DIY Cuben Fiber tarp projects are threefold:
    I'm normally a big fan of DIY, but I think I'm going to pass for this particular item. From what I can tell, I'll need to buy about 8 yards of raw material, which would be $256. Then I'll need to purchase all the tape/glue/hardware, which would probably be another $20 or more. That would bring me up to ~$280 just in raw materials. I have no idea how long it will take to make the tarp, but I bet it would take at least a weekend. I'm not willing to put that much time/effort into something just to save $30-40, especially when I'm almost certain to end up with an inferior product.

    That being said, I absolutely can see myself coming back to this and creating my own tarp from scratch in a few years, after I've found all the little modifications/improvements I'd want to make.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyroler Holzhacker View Post
    One nice thing about non dyneema tarps is the ability to get printed tarps vs the standard green brown or camo tarp only available with dyneema material.
    Printing is fun, but it's not much of a priority for me. I prefer solid colors and want my tarp to blend in to the background. Definitely see why that would appeal to other people though.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilvrSurfr View Post
    That kind of thinking might work if you're overweight, but I'm already at my ideal weight (165 lbs.). Back in 2014, I got the bright idea to drop down to 140 lbs. (my wedding day weight in 1990). Once I got down to 140 lbs., I suddenly realized that I would have to buy an entirely new wardrobe! You know how hard it is to find pants with a 28 or 29 inch waist? Sorry, I am not shopping in the kids section. I quickly went back to 165 lbs. and a 32-inch waist.
    So losing 10 ounces of tarp weight by going to cuben fiber was actually cheaper for me than losing 25 lbs. of body weight.
    Heh, I actually need to put on some weight

    I've dropped 15-20 lbs since I stopped regularly weightlifting and I want to get that strength back. Just need to find someone to sell me a high quality barbell up here...

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