Sleep without layers to be warmer?

[dakotaross]

Roll out the magical thinking....

Gadget

What's magic, the fact that warm air expands? The fact that a warmer volume of air feels warm to the body, and that the body reacts to that? The fact that the less you have on, the more you feel and react to that. No, I know what it is, it must be magic that perspiration vapor is transported away from the body more rapidly given the higher temps within the quilt/baq and that those higher temps prevent it from condensing immediately at the edge of the quilt/bag. I wonder what happens to that perspiration vapor when temps within the bag/quilt don't rise to a sufficient level for transport? Hmmm....

[dakotaross]

Dakotaross, my apologies for cherry-picking your post — and you did say "may" — but I have a fair amount of experience in very cold weather using the additive insulation strategy and have found that it works very well for me as long as the layers 1) are not tight and 2) are not damp. Managing layers (and pace) to avoid overheating/sweating during the day is key.

To me, cold/dry is easy. 34°F and rain/sleet is where the real danger lies. I rarely carry an extra set of dry longjohns for short trips (with reasonably reliable forecast), but on a longer trip — or if I were doing a thru of some sort where such conditions would be expected — I would definitely carry the spare dry layer.

You describe an Atlanta January, the worst month we have, cold and rainy. I'll take 10 in Boston any day over that. No prob on the post, I don't disagree with anything you say. Again, my purpose is to explain how to get the most out of one piece of gear. How to get to 25 degrees or so in your 20 degree quilt/bag without feeling like you have to pack extra layers. Hikers get cold, they crawl into their bag/quilts, they don't put on what they'd rather not carry. Not to say they don't carry dry clothes for around camp, just saying they typically don't pack multiple layers for staying warm inside a bag/quilt.

[MrJames]

I find that when I try different clothing in cold temperatures outside, the standard hourly body temperature chart below applies to me -- especially that nighttime dip, when nothing has objectively changed in my environment,. I also find in winter that my inside perception of feeling cold or warm varying during some days and at different times, although my room temperature and any drafts are constant. Three thermometers verify this.
Body_Temp_Variation.jpg

The thing that warms me up if I start feeling cold in that middle of the night dip when sleeping outside, is quick carbs, such as a Clif bar or Snickers, box of caramel popcorn, etc. In about half and hour I'm back to sound sleep until morning (other than wake to take a leak(s)). This works at any time, inside or out, because I'm a geezer who sometimes awakens after five hours sleep, a real nuisance.

What I often want to know when feeling cold outside is -- is it me? -- or has my immediate environmental temperature really changed? -- what is it precisely?
I keep one of these in my hammock or sleeping bag for reality checks. Ten bucks from Amazon, throw away the suction cup.
sleep outside thermometer.jpg

[BillyBob58]

Well, yeah, you probably saw some of my posts on the subject. But again, you've apparently misread what was said. Perhaps its my fault for the format...

Q1: When I read: "If you are cold, take some clothing off". - I contend this has never been said. Its not the same thing as "warmer when naked" which is taking off clothing to before you're cold to ensure you get the most out of your quilt/bag. You go out when its getting into the 30s, you take a 20 degree quilt/bag, then I say sleep in minimal clothing. You shouldn't need any more insulation, and that's the point. If you feel like you do, why is that? If you're already in minimal clothing and you're still cold, yeah, put on more insulation. That's all anyone has ever said. Yeah, some say "sleep nekked", but I think that's a farce (though it has been said).

Is my point only semantics? I say no, that its in this detail that you're losing the thoughts that are being presented to you. All 3 of your original questions seem to indicate a misunderstanding of what's been said on the subject. Its not about taking off clothing to be warmer when you're cold. I guess its hard to reconcile what you're hearing with the "insulation is insulation" idea that lots of folks have, including you it seems. At some base level, its true, insulation is insulation, though on a more practical level multiple layers of insulation, especially different types, may have an subversive effect on overall insulation as opposed to being only additive.

Again, not to say that folks can't have success adding clothing as insulation. Nothing is really absolute here. For me, its a way of understanding how to stay warmer in temps where I shouldn't have to bring extra clothing to add. Seems like you're trying to make more of it than it is.

p.s. yes, I think GadgetUK437 has hit on an element of the less is more theory... which is, the warmer you can get the volume of air in the quilt/bag, the greater that air will expand, and therefore, loft the quilt. Its not all about loft, though. My guess if measured, that there is some significant difference, but not enough for that one single factor to justify the theory. Rather, beside loft, there are other benefits to the "warmer" quilt/bag that work as a whole to make the theory work. I think you have to lose the thought that someone like me is telling you something different about physics - I'm not - but rather that we're adding physiology. However, its clear that we haven't exhausted all of the physics that may be at play, thus why we discuss this crap ad nauseum.

(with apologies to JustBill who very likely might have highlighted every single aspect of the physics, and its just me that glazed over in the middle parts of his spiel, or of all his spiels; talk about losing thoughts in the detail, huh?!?)

Well, OK then, maybe you are right. Maybe I have simply misunderstood what most people were trying to say on this subject? Certainly quite possible. OTOH, that is exactly why I started this thread: hoping for some explanation of why they thought some approach of "less is more" when it comes to clothing worn at night worked for them. Or even, if that is the case, how I have just been totally misunderstanding what they were claiming. So thank you for the clarification!

[HandyRandy]

I don’t think I've seen any mentions of pillows as insulation. A small down neck pillow is probably a great idea because it will insulate the small arch under your neck from drafts and probably make you more comfortable, which will make you shift around less. I like the ones Warbonnet makes or the ones made by Goosefeet.

Another idea I'm thinking of is to throw hand-warmers in your quilt BEFORE you jump in. I like the zippo reusable ones. Another idea I want to try is to put them in my shoes for a while when I wake up, before I getup. Let them warm up while I make “bread-kfust from ma hammuck”.

I have two of the smaller versions, but only just thought of using them as such.

[Just Bill]

PS I just discovered your “Lying on the Trail”! Looks like a good read!

Well that was a bad idea, it's a horrible book.

Thanks anyway

[Just Bill]

For those old enough to recall....

Some of the 'sleep naked' push is partially related to Stephenson's Warmlite... a company that was well ahead of it's time and helped push many early ideas in sleep technology.

The fine folks at Stephenson's were 'naturalists' or more accurately nudists and the catalog was a highlight for this young gear nerd. While the phrase 'gear porn' was not in common use until recent times, it certainly applied.

These days... The EN ratings assume you are wearing a baselayer and that is currently the recommended choice.
Sleep socks, a vest, or midweight baselayer top are all commonly used 'add ons'.

Proper headwear (especially with quilts) is just as, if not more important than any other clothing you choose to wear.
While the old adage of 'you lose 90% of your body heat through your head' has been disproved. There is still solid wisdom in 'If your feet are cold put on a hat'.

To Handy Randy's point... a pillow is perfectly good insulation. Moreso perhaps in a hammock where you may be likely to sleep with a partial length UQ. We discuss using a foam sit pad or similar under our feet/calves, but not many people discuss putting something under your neck/head area to insulate if your underquilt stops at your shoulders.

As mentioned before... you can 'get away' with more small errors at temps around 30* and up.
So if you choose not to insulate your head, if your core is doing well your circulatory system may be sufficient to keep you warm enough to sleep through a small exposed or under insulated portion of your body.

Below that though... be it a shoulder, calf, or back of your head... if any small portion of your body is too cold then you will not sleep no matter how warm the rest of you is.

Hats in general can be a great way to regulate your temps without going overboard elsewhere. A few ounces of head insulation is more efficient than trying to add or subtract clothing.
So if you have a 20* top quilt... and it's 30* at bedtime falling to 20*. Wear a light beanie or balaclava to start so you don't overheat.
If you awaken chilled, then slip on an insulated hood and that 3 oz piece will do more for you than fiddling with a 12 ounce jacket.

The weight gain of using a 20* TQ vs a 30* is often only a few ounces. Add the 3 oz down or synthetic hood and you are only 6 oz or so into it.
The hood can be worn at any time and is also very handy for regulating temps while moving. So instead of stopping and pulling out a jacket, you can slip on the hood you pull from your pocket.
This may lead you to find you can leave the insulated jacket at home altogether.

[Just Bill]

Well... the internet is a neat place.

WARNING- this catalog features some photos of people in the buff.
It also features some great articles and other information some might find interesting.
It isn't the full catalog but is a scan from the late 90's I believe.

http://warmlight.net/cat-web.pdf

[ComfyCocoon]

One thing that I found to significantly help me stay warm in colder weather was switching from a polyester base layer to using Wiggy's Fishnet Long Underwear. I was very skeptical of them before I tried them, but I have to say that they work great for me. They have really increased my comfort in sub freezing temps no matter what I am doing (hiking, hunting, sleeping in the hammock, shoveling snow, etc.). YMMV, but I would say don't knock them until you try them.

[BillyBob58]

You describe an Atlanta January, the worst month we have, cold and rainy. I'll take 10 in Boston any day over that. No prob on the post, I don't disagree with anything you say. Again, my purpose is to explain how to get the most out of one piece of gear. How to get to 25 degrees or so in your 20 degree quilt/bag without feeling like you have to pack extra layers. Hikers get cold, they crawl into their bag/quilts, they don't put on what they'd rather not carry. Not to say they don't carry dry clothes for around camp, just saying they typically don't pack multiple layers for staying warm inside a bag/quilt.

That is true for me also, I usually don't carry extra layers for staying warm inside a quilt. But I have on occasion done so if the quilts/bags I was using might not be quite up to the weather, especially if it gets colder than probable.

But the thing is, I have mostly had good luck in my attempts to keep warm in hammocks once I got past the learning curve and realized what was different about a hammock and how to compensate for that. No issues on the ground except one time in late June 85 at 10000+ feet in WY. And even that time, being wet was the problem. Never a challenge since that day until I tried a Hennessy Hammock 21 years later in those same WY mountains, but Sept. New learning curve began, and took a little longer than most for me, but after a year or so, I have had nothing but success since then.

Typically for me, even as the years have me pushing 70(def not as hot natured as I used to be, but still so much more so than my wife! ), if I get in a quilt set(or the equiv) from a respected manufacturer, and I am well fed and in good condition and out of the wind and dry, I am going to have no trouble keeping warm to at least the rated temp, regardless of other layers. For example, a recent night at 25F in a JRB bridge with what JRB calls 3 season 20-25F quilts top and bottom, and my trusty JRB hood(oh, what a difference that has made to my success with quilts!). Nice and toasty until time to get up, extra layers worn were my cotton PJs and the same thin nylon socks I would wear around town. That was totally adequate. Probably could have gone a few degrees colder. Since I don't hold cotton in high esteem for keeping warm, I figure I got little to no boost from those layers, they were possibly even a negative. So I usually do not need extra layers to be warm in my quilts at or above their rated temps. Nor in an HHSS. Nor in a Pea Pod(at least underneath).

But here is the thing: so far at least, never have I climbed into a similar set up while wearing a base layer and fleece or polargard clothing head to toe, and found that I was not warm enough- and fairly quickly- at the rated temp. And I often do this- at home and on the trail- because I don't like having to climb out into the cold with little clothing on, so I just sleep in whatever warm clothing I have with me, or some of it. The normal result of this is- if I am not in poor shape or hungry- that I am now too warm, after a while. I may even have to vent. (and this may be a potential drawback, especially if without VBs- I must not sweat and get my insulation wet, so if wearing excess, prepare to vent!) It is pretty much a case of 2 + 2 = 4, or almost. (imperfections will always enter in). I.E., 2" of down + 2" of down = 4" of down, or pretty close. Or, if my quilt is 2 CLO, and I add a jacket that is 1 CLO, I'm going to end up pretty close to 3 CLO. It is really that simple for me. If I am not in good condition, then the additional CLO or loft whichever is preferred, always seems to help me reach my quilts potential as when I am in good condition.

When I am on the trail, where conditions are often way less than perfect, I am going to have with me clothing that is appropriate for the hiking conditions and for sitting around camp. I am always going to have a quilt rated for below the expected temps, unless I don't own one. Or in the case of the Pea Pod, when I expect my hammocks tendency to lift the top layer, plus gaps around the breathing vent, will make it difficult to reach the rating expected from the 2.5"+ top loft, until whatever gap is filled, then I am even better off with that loft + the amount require to fill the gap. But if my quilt proves not up to it's usual warmth due to my disability, or due to some dampness or a wind problem that I can not solve, then those layer I already have with me, especially if dry(my Polarguard dries amazingly fast), have always proven to be a big help. And, I have even used the clothing I already have with me knowing full well before a trip that the quilt is not quite up to snuff. Because I did not want to buy yet another quilt because I needed an extra 10 or 20 º this one time. It ha always worked for me, even before VBs. A quilt rated for warmer than expected temps is the most weight and even cost efficient way to go. If you have such a quilt. If not, buying a new one is still the most weight and volume efficient way to go, but of course $, maybe even big $. So I have often improvised.