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  1. #1
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    NC: Too cold in Pisgah

    After spending 26 nights on the trail last year (a personal best by far) I knew if I wanted to continue to get outside on a regular basis, I was going to have to up my cold weather game. I’ve been trying to work on my outdoor wardrobe using Skurka’s articles and have purchased quite a few new bits of gear to try. I had an early March vacation, and while I was unsure if I could handle the temperatures comfortably, I decided to go for it and planned a four-night loop in Shining Rock and Middle Prong.
    I left work in Greensboro about 11:30 on Friday and headed towards Pisgah. I was aware the temperatures might be too cold for my gear, and there was a high wind warning to boot. The wind warning didn’t bother me too much, it had been similarly windy when I did the Green Knob trail in Middle Prong last spring. Asheville was expecting temperatures in the normal 30-50F range and while the trails up in Pisgah are a few thousand feet higher, my experience is that they aren’t all that much cooler, but this has varied over the several trips I did in the area last year.
    On the drive through Canton, I stopped by the Jukebox Junction diner and had a nice Carolina style burger and some tasty onion rings. If you’re taking this way rather than the Parkway, it’s worth checking out. I continued up Lake Logan Rd and parked where the MST crosses the road. I began my hike in a standard base layer t-shirt thinking it was noticeably cooler than 50F but I just blamed it on the wind. I would later look at my data logger readings and determine it was already into the upper 30’s at that point. I didn’t get very far before the breeze forced me to throw on a wind shirt which helped substantially. There is a small stream with a log bridge over it and I stopped to fill up the water bottles. I had decided to take a Nalgene to use as a hot water bottle in case it got really cold.
    My goal for the first night was a stand of Balsams near Devil’s Courthouse. I’ve stayed here a few other times. There’s plenty of flat open ground under the balsams and a nice stream a few hundred feet into the woods. I tried to set up between the two trees I’ve used previously but gave up after 20 minutes of fighting cold fingers and windblown gear. It was becoming obvious the tarp wasn’t going to block enough wind and I’m not sure it would have survived the beating anyway. I walked downhill a little way and found an OK spot that was much less exposed to the full force of the wind. By the time I finally had camp set up, it was almost dark and already getting colder quick.
    I laid down in the hammock to rest for a few minutes and noticed my stomach felt icy cold to the touch and I was starting to shiver even with my down jacket on. My shirt felt like it had dried out already, but I knew it had gotten sweaty from the hike in. It was really shocking how much of a difference putting on a different shirt made. I intended to keep a separate dry shirt just to sleep in, but the shirt I hiked in wearing didn’t feel the slightest bit damp. I then put on some Columbia long underwear with the fancy Omni heat dots. I had a rather odd reaction to these. My knees of all things began to feel very cold. Even when I was in the hammock in my sleeping bag, my knees were super uncomfortable. I wasn’t in any sort of position that had them pressed against the sleeping bag or anything. I figured my pants were probably like the shirt I hiked in with, sweaty enough I’d be warmer without them on. At this point, I was listening to the weather radio and tweaking my setup trying to get as warm as possible. I knew if I ate something, I’d feel better, but I wasn’t hungry just yet. I had hauled in quite a bit of extra reflectix which along with some foam pads did a good job of keeping me warm underneath. I had a cheap 20F bag as a top quilt and a silk liner inside for extra measure.
    Among my new gear to try were Goosefeet gear down socks and the matching overboots. I was happy with how warm my feet felt with these on. On previous winter trips I could sit in my hammock like a chair and cook dinner, but my feet would freeze. Not this time. The overboots, however, are a bit of a joke. I suspect they are designed with the idea of walking around camp on packed snow and I imagine they’d work well for that. If I got up to water the tree, it was almost like walking on ice. Your feet and down socks slide around in the boots if the ground isn’t perfectly flat under you. It was rather obnoxious and made walking very slow and awkward but they did seem to at least product the down socks.
    After I finally ate dinner, I felt pretty comfortable, but this didn’t last very long and I felt myself starting to shiver. I knew this meant I was going to end up using the space blanket. Space blankets are amazing things, but I absolutely hate using them for the wet clamminess they give you. I found I needed to keep my down socks on inside the space blanket to stay warm but this had me concerned about moisture build up. I had my down jacket and fleece mid layer on, but I didn’t need to pull the space blanket up past my waist to stay warm so I wasn’t too worried about those layers getting wet.
    I went to sleep and was mostly comfortable during the night. Anytime I left the hammock during the night, it was very hard to get warm again. At some point, my legs felt like they were getting cold again. I decided to put my hiking pants back on and was absolutely shocked how much warmer it made things feel. It ended up getting down to 20F which was a good bit cooler than I expected. Before dawn, I decided I should try the hot water bottle trick, but I discovered the Nalgene had frozen solid. I expected a bit of ice inside, but it was a solid complete block. I also discovered my feet were getting cold. The space blanket had caused the down socks to become completely soggy. I was thinking this would take days, but in a single night, they were totally useless.
    I did my best to sleep in and didn’t bother trying to get up till the sun was starting to really warm things up. Breakfast was pretty miserable. I had brought granola with dehydrated milk, but there was no way I was going to eat a cold liquid. I was able to scoop water from a nearby brook without having to deal with my frozen water bottles. I made LOTS of coffee, more than my share for the day and considered my options while eating Snickers for breakfast. At this point, it dawned on me that my toes had been cold enough I could barely feel some of them for many hours.
    I knew I could break camp and hike to warm up, but I was no longer going to have anything dry to put on that night. The wind might die down, over the day, but it would likely be just as cold the next night. I considered making a fire, but that seemed like a bad idea under the circumstances. NOAA was expecting the wind to stay until at least noon and was warning against fires while the wind was blowing. If I waited that long and then took the time to dry out my gear, I’d be way too far behind schedule on completing my hike. If I continued on my planned route, I’d end up walking around Black Balsam Knob and into the Shining Rock wilderness where fires are not allowed, so I couldn’t do the whole fire thing after the day’s hike.
    Given my options, I decided it was best to abort while I was only an hour from the car. My gear was able to keep my moderately comfortable, but there was no way I was going to manage another night like that without a way to dry everything out. I had no issues staying warm once I got moving again and my toes all felt fine after I had been on the trail a little while. Halfway back to the car I felt comfortable enough I was second guessing myself. Almost. I took the Parkway down out of the mountains and enjoyed the views from some of the overlooks before a late lunch at Sunny Point café. I had to wait outside in the cold a little while before I got a seat, which made me happy I wasn’t spending another night out in the cold. It was worth the wait for the best shrimp and grits I’ve ever had. I noticed I.B.T.A.T. in the kitchen. I considered trying to wish him luck on his upcoming thru-hike, but it was awfully busy in there for all that. I hope he has warmer nights than I did.
    So, 20F is a new PR for me and I learned a lot about the limits of my gear. I really hate having to bail early, but it wasn’t just a matter of comfort. Another night would have likely been downright dangerous without better gear.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Donk_67's Avatar
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    Always wise to know when a retreat/ regroup is the prudent thing to do. Sounds like it was a valuable testing session in the woods.


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  3. #3
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    It sounds like it was a fun time, despite the temps! Its always interesting bringing our gear to it's limits, I just recently set my personal low (19°F) a couple weeks ago. Good job on pulling back when you needed to. If you ever want a hiking partner up that way, let me know. I've been meaning to get up to Black Balsam Knob for almost two years now, but I don't have anyone to go with and I don't know that area all that well (aside from looking at maps). Either way, it sounds like you played it smart and still got to hang for an evening, so that's a successful trip in my books!
    "The world is a complicated place Hobbes"
    "Whenever it seems that way, I take a nap in a tree and wait for dinner"
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  4. #4
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    What a great learning experience! And you confirmed the most basic principle of vapor barrier(VB/space blanket/SB) use: expect any insulation between your skin and the VB to get wet. Or at least damp. But if down, or anything which soaks up moisture, expect it to get very wet.

    Now add this to your VB knowledge. You can even experiment to confirm it inside your house! And that fact is: if you had with you some free and almost weightless waterproof bread bags(or real deal Warmlite VB socks and/or clothing), worn over a thin liner sock and underneath all other foot insulation such as wool socks, down booties and sleeping bag foot box, your feet might have felt clammy but would have been toasty warm with bone dry down booties! Just think: free and almost weightless, with the ability to totally save that scenario you described! Actually, I'm surprised you even needed the down booties if your feet were wrapped up in the sb inside the sklleping bag foot box. But, OTOH, if you had the VB socks you likely would not even need the sb at least for your feet.

    Did you have rain gear? Even if it was somewhat breathable, to my amazement, many claim that it will function at least fairly well as a VB. And I have used such as VBs for my legs with apparent success. All the better if not breathable, say sil-nylon. Or any cheap non-breathable rain gear jacket and pants would work great!

    So, if you wore a thin base layer, with your rain gear(already have with you, no extra cost or weight or bulk) over that, and all other insulation:jackets, pants, sleeping bag) over that, bread sacks under down booties that little change would have meant you slept toasty dry with all insulation(except for the sacrificed thin skin layer of wool or synthetic that makes the VB less uncomfortable, but which dries very quickly!) , you would have slept at least 20*F warmer and bone dry. I can virtually guarantee it, unless of corse you use the VBs wrong. Wrong would be OVER down booties!

    So, you have about got it whipped! Just make those minor changes! ( It sounds like the VB/space blanket did the expected job of keeping you much warmer until your insulation got wet. But avoiding the getting wet part- except for the thin skin layer- is quite easy! Just reverse the order of the layers! With 99% of the thick insulation on the outside of the VB, and you are one warm, dry, happy camper. Because feeling a little clammy, which will be minimized by anyway by the right skin layer(thin syn or Merino wool) or Warmlite Fuzzystuff VBs-is a whole boat load superior to shivering, or having to bail because of being cold and wet, I'm sure you agree. And now you know this, and you have got it covered from now on!

    Thanks for the interesting report, which like I said is- or should be- a great teaching moment. I recommend you read Dejoha's thread on VBs. Read about the time wrapping up in a tarp saved him from a probable night of shivering. Post #55 here: https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/...rs-(VBL)/page2

    Or - didn't you say you had been reading Skurka? He is a MAJOR VB enthusiast. Check this out: https://andrewskurka.com/2011/vapor-...#comment-32045

    You are right on the verge of a big discovery! Prove it to yourself tonight! Get some bread bags or some sort of thin waterproof layer to cover your feet inside of socks and down booties and sleep in them in your bed. Your feet will probably be so warm that they will actually sweat from over heating. But if the VB is good and waterproof, no problem: the moisture can not get into the down booties and they will be bone dry in the morning. Your liner socks might be soaked, but no problem. Your real insulation will be bone dry, and you will have blocked evaporative cooling 100%. Evaporative cooling is a big contributor to hypothermia, as is- of course- wet or damp insulation.
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 03-08-2018 at 00:20.

  5. #5
    TallPaul's Avatar
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    GQ - pretty sure I know the balsam stand you are talking about. Beautiful area.
    I’ve been up there in windy cold weather and one thing about those balsam stands - there is little to no wind protection. I’ve hung on the edge of them before just to get some wind block from other vegetation growing nearby. Even then the wind was swirling and I was thanking Brandon my SuperFly wasn’t tearing apart. So good move trying to find a better spot.
    I also had to learn the hard way how quickly water freezes - my lesson was with a 4L water bag. I didn’t want to talk .5 miles back to the spring the next day so I took enough water to dry camp. And apparently have enough ice for frozen margaritas if a party showed up.
    In those conditions, I like having an UQP as an added wind block. I also like having an UQ rated 10-15* below what the temps is supposed to get down to. Those two things have helped me. But I’m still learning as well. And it’s nice that Shining Rock does have some nice places to easily bail from while we get this all sorted out.

  6. #6
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    Regarding the space blanket, I have used it before and sort of knew I'd end up damp, but not that damp. I thought about the bread bags for my feet. I actually had a few trash bags I could have used, but I really thought it was going to take a few nights to degrade the performance of the down socks. VB stuff is interesting, but I'd MUCH rather just have a top quilt that's up to the job of keeping me warm so I don't have to deal with the clamminess.

    I did have a full Frogg Toggs rain suit I could have put on as an extra layer. I've done that in the past and it does add warmth. One thing I wish I'd have had was a hammock sock of some sort to try on halfway through the night. It would have been interesting to see how much warmer it might make things.

    Over New Years weekend I went to the Birkhead wilderness and it was down to 27F. I had cleared away a large area of leaves on the ground to make a fire. Before going to bed, I buried my water bottles in the pile of leaves and put a disposable hand warmer between them. It worked perfectly to keep things from freezing. I totally forgot about hand warmers on this trip. A few of them would have made a ton of difference though it's not something I'd try and pack a supply of for a 5-day trip.


    Trips like this really make me appreciate my data logger. If I look back at the weather for Asheville, they only got down to 39F that night. Knowing exactly how cold it actually got and what worked and what didn't is invaluable to me.

  7. #7
    Senior Member cmoulder's Avatar
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    What clothing, specifically, from head to toe (incl hands), was being used? Without a complete list it's hard to evaluate the situation.

    The most efficient and effective systems are based upon the simple formula of Base+Fleece+Shell+Puffy, which offers a bunch of flexibility for a range of conditions by mixing and matching layers, and tweaking for when it's only a bit cold or when it's extremely cold.

    You discovered one of the biggest problems in the winter: Overheating! The thing you mentioned that leapt out at me was getting sweaty from the hike in. This should not happen in the winter and is easily prevented (or largely mitigated) by venting and/or removing layers until you're no longer overly warm. The only thing that might get a little damp is a polyester base layer, which should dry out relatively quickly when the activity level drops while doing camp setup, etc.

    As for freezing water, make some jackets for water bottles using simple bubble mailers, or get fancy and use reflectix or some 3/8" closed-cell foam. If there's snow, you can bury the bottles in the snow without any insulation at all and they will not freeze.
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  8. #8
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    Clothing:

    Saxx Kinetic Boxer Briefs
    These are new to me. I'm not sure, but I think I like the Exofficio's better.

    Nike Legend Dri-Fit T-shirt
    This is the only thing that got damp during the hike in. There's no getting around that.

    Prana Zion Stretch pants

    Farm to Feet Damascus lightweight socks
    These were new. I think I like the mid-weights I have better, but there wasn't that much difference.

    Part way into the hike, you get closer to the ridgeline and the wind picked up. At this point, I stopped and put on a Montbell tachyon wind shirt which helped nicely but also lead to the increased dampness of the t-shirt.

    Once I got to camp and stopped moving, I was immediately getting chilled. Here is where things get tricky. I've changed into dry clothes when getting to camp before just to feel clean in the summer. The issue is that if you do this too soon, you'll get sweaty all over again setting up camp. I don't think that would be the case in these conditions but may have if I had collected and processed firewood. So I added layers over what was an 'almost' dry base layer. I'm not sure if that degrades those layers to any noticeable degree or not. I perhaps should have swapped out to my dry t-shirt I planned to sleep in.

    I tossed on a half-zip REI scree line fleece top. This is their knockoff hooded R1 until I can get a Melly. I hear all the cool kids these days wear boutique fleece. *rolls eyes*

    This was brand new to me and obviously not going to cut it alone so I pulled out my brand new hooded ghost whisperer. This replaced a cheap Uniqlo down jacket and is a good deal warmer but the fit is a bit snugger.

    I also put on my Defeet wool gloves which work great under these conditions but need to come off to do certain things. I also traded a Headsweats visor I had on for a fleece hat.

    This was reasonably warm except perhaps during a full-on gust of wind. If I had insulated pants (Borah gear is on the wish list) I would have been much more comfortable.

    I didn't try utilizing the wind shirt once I was in camp.

    Once I realized the base layer causing me issues (or maybe this was just the hike in and finally catching up to me) I swapped out to a fresh dry Nike shirt which felt MUCH warmer. I was pressing the other shirt against my face and couldn't feel any dampness. Very surprising how much of a difference that made.

    I also lost the pants (it was dark and I was getting into the sleeping bag anyway) and put on the long underwear. I should experiment with those some more and see if I get weird cold spots on a local day hike while wearing them. They were also new to me.

    I switched into dry wool socks when I went to bed as well. Along with the moisture, I think another issue I had was my sleeping bad not being quite long enough. I'm 6'3" so this is usually an issue. This had my feet pressed against the bag on the inside which would have been squishing the loft on the down socks. Regardless, they seemed to work fine till they got wet. It does drive home the need for a decent foot box in any future quilt I may make myself.

    If I were going to hang out at 20F, I'd need to supplement my torso layers or swap out to a heavier down jacket or maybe a 200 weight fleece.

    I could play around with using the wind shell and or rain jacket next time, but I imagine these would be rather uncomfortable (clammy) even if they worked. If the plan is to hike in a do a group camp with a nice fire, I'd probably want some sort of wool anorak to protect my down from the fire as much as provide additional warmth.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBob58 View Post
    Thanks for the interesting report, which like I said is- or should be- a great teaching moment. I recommend you read Dejoha's thread on VBs. Read about the time wrapping up in a tarp saved him from a probable night of shivering. Post #55 here: https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/...rs-(VBL)/page2
    Great link to this thread. Hadnt seen it yet. Now have read the whole thing

  10. #10
    Senior Member cmoulder's Avatar
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    Things to ponder....

    The Tachyon has an extremely low CFM (breathability) which is why it is clammy. Better to use (if you can find one) a Montbell (MB) Dynamo wind jacket (similar to Pata Houdini), or, better yet, ditch the windshirt altogether and use a light rain shell such as MB Versalite, which has pit zips that do wonders to help ventilate. You can wear the Versalite right over a t-shirt and use it just like a windshirt, and over a 100- or 150-wt fleece for an incredible amount of warmth. Your puffy (Ghost Whisperer) should fit comfortable over all these layers combined, so when you say it has a snug fit, IME you want something larger for this application.

    No shell layer for the legs? When activity levels decrease the legs turn into big ol' heat-dumping radiators and they need layers very similar to the upper body. For hiking in, the Zion pants are fine, but something that would help enormously are some lightweight synthetic longjohns... I don't know the weight of the ones you mentioned for sleeping, but those, if they are lightweight polyester, would be perfect for hiking and probably would not overheat your legs. If you had some shell pants as an outer layer, you'd be much happier.

    I've changed into dry clothes when getting to camp before just to feel clean in the summer. The issue is that if you do this too soon, you'll get sweaty all over again setting up camp.

    Again — remove layers before getting hot/sweaty in the first place! You should make this your new mantra: Ventilation Before Perspiration!!

    UQs are lots warmer than air/foam pads.

    Hands: thin polyester liners (for better dexterity), 100-200wt fleece (large enough to fit over liners), and MLD eVent rain mitts, the shell layer for hands

    It is perfectly okay to sleep in every single piece of clothing you brought. This actually how I plan my winter trips, using clothing to supplement my TQ rating, which keeps pack weight and volume much lower. I rarely carry extra layers... maybe a spare pair of socks.
    Five Basic Principles of Going Lighter (not me... the great Cam Honan of OZ)
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