I may be done with my Chameleon Top cover...

[Xtrm tj]

Does the Breathilizer Dutch created help this problem? I saw that was available, but it sounds like the vent isn't sufficent to exhaust in cooler temps too?

[rais'n hammock]

Does the Breathilizer Dutch created help this problem? I saw that was available, but it sounds like the vent isn't sufficent to exhaust in cooler temps too?

I do not believe the breathalyzer will solve this issue. The material is non-absorbing and will have frost build up just like I found on the underside of the top cover. My frost bib does the same thing as the breathalyzer in creating the shield against the moisture and stopping it from getting on my top quilt but also absorbs the frost unlike the breathalyzer.
I would agree the top cover does not allow for enough ventilation when fully zipped nor enough when unzipped as shown. The best is without any top cover above your head. It may only be useful below the bib or breathalyzer but then the benefit is minimal and more of a pain then it is worth. IMO.

[Shug]

It is not a top quilt. So often I wake up in middle of the night and there's this cold wet slobber all over the chest area of my quilt. It's my breath condensed in the cold air. If there was a layer above the quilt, inside would be dry and slobbery feeling condensation is on the "cover" - if such a thing existed.

That is why I use a frost bib.
Wilderness Logics adds a fleece condensation patch on their TQs for Winter.....http://www.wildernesslogics.com/TOP-...Quilt-King.htm

[cmoulder]

Like a lot of things, this must be quite subjective because I have not experienced serious frost issues with the Chameleon top cover. Even on the worst night yet — 14°F and quite humid — the build-up wasn't 1/10th of that in the OP's photos. Several nights out in single digits and teens (with low relative humidity) and I've had no frost at all!

I read quite a bit about this issue before getting the Chameleon top cover and was anticipating the worst, happily unwarranted this time.

Am I the only one who doesn't have this problem with the Chameleon?

[kitsapcowboy]

Am I the only one who doesn't have this problem with the Chameleon?

No, I don't either. The Chameleon vent is plenty big for me to go winter camping with good ventilation and still see a meaningful and measurable thermocline inside my hammock.

That said, wintertime condensation is a complex phenomenon involving a host of variables, both environmental and metabolic, which is why experience can vary so much between individuals. I've only taken my Chameleon with a top cover down to 25F, but I very seldom encounter condensation issues even with equipment and conditions that would normally promote them.

[rweb82]

My inclination is that condensation doesn't become much of an issue until temps hover around 15° or below. I recently camped where it got down to -11°, and everyone had condensation issues- even those with canvas socks. At extreme temps, I don't think there is anything that will eliminate or decrease condensation. The game then becomes how do you keep it from snowing on top of you and your quilt? Textured fabrics, such as canvas, wool, fleece, or even a bugnet will hold the condensation better, ensuring that it doesn't fall on you. I used my bugnet- and while it was covered in frozen condensation, I had no issues with falling moisture. That said, next time I will probably go without any cover at those temps.

Nylon and poly fabrics will never be able to trap the condensation. That's why I don't think top covers work well in extreme temps. Better to go with canvas or no cover at all.

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[mychal]

I tried a top cover once. Once.

Then I put it on a hook.

I've fulfilled a lot of people's predictions about me. I've become a real scumbag.

--Danny Vermin

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[BillyBob58]

Like a lot of things, this must be quite subjective because I have not experienced serious frost issues with the Chameleon top cover. Even on the worst night yet — 14°F and quite humid — the build-up wasn't 1/10th of that in the OP's photos. Several nights out in single digits and teens (with low relative humidity) and I've had no frost at all!

I read quite a bit about this issue before getting the Chameleon top cover and was anticipating the worst, happily unwarranted this time.

Am I the only one who doesn't have this problem with the Chameleon?

No, I don't either. The Chameleon vent is plenty big for me to go winter camping with good ventilation and still see a meaningful and measurable thermocline inside my hammock.

That said, wintertime condensation is a complex phenomenon involving a host of variables, both environmental and metabolic, which is why experience can vary so much between individuals. I've only taken my Chameleon with a top cover down to 25F, but I very seldom encounter condensation issues even with equipment and conditions that would normally promote them.

It is a complex situation. I have dealt with a lot of condensation problems over the years. I have had plenty on the inside of my tarp and on my TQ near the head end, or condensing on my sleeping bag when sleeping under the stars, or soaking the foot end of my bag and OCF pad in the 40s. I have had my breath go up through my breathing vent right above my face when sleeping in my PeaPod at 10F, where it would freeze and snow back down through the opening onto my face, waking me up. Etc.

But I have only used a sock - or a form of a sock, one time and I had zero issues, even though I was expecting a bunch. Just laying in this sock previously in above freezing temps, I thought that I could feel an immediate increase in humidity, in so called clammy feeling. So I was expecting some at least near my head. But I got none. It was 6F, my personal hammock record( I know, but I live way down south. So not much for some guys, but plenty cold enough to cause lots of condensation, right?) Maybe if I tried it again I would be soaked, due to a change in some mystery factor?

This is what I used:

But that Over Cover may have been hung so that it was outside the hammock edges(water runs off to outside hammock better, but the edges can be lifted up by the wind easier, which decreases wind proofing slightly but may also cut humidity level inside) Tis is the original report: https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/...-VBs-and-HHSSs

Here is what was totally new for me other than the sock: a faux frost bib, accomplished simply by hanging a fleece jacket from the RL so that it dangled a few inches in front of my face. draped loosely over my TQ, the same one that got so soaked on a previous ~ 10F test in a bridge hammock and JRB MW4 UQ, with a wide open tarp above and nothing else, including no frost bib. The other thing was VB clothing for other than socks, or other than a space blanket under the hammock and above insulation. But this was the first time sealed - so to speak - inside the VB torso, legs and socks.

My hopes were to be warm enough and not have a really bothersome amount of condensation. I was toast wrm and had zero condensation, with the exception of the bib which was quite wet but not frozen. I did not have a tarp, which I would expect to make the top cover even colder and more prone to condensation. But I was just barely under the edge of a roof 8 or 10 feet up.
Here is the total gear used:
"Gear: HH Explorer UL zip hammock with HHSS using 1 pad and space blanket and OC. After 45 mins I was still having just a slight coolness at my butt and back of thighs and a little calf pressure, so I decided to add the HH kidney/torso pads(~ 3 oz) and a cut down blue WM pad in the hammock under my legs. This solved all issues.


Clothing:
head: balaclava and JRB down hood
torso: Stephenson's Warmlite(SWL) Fuzzy stuff VB shirt and thin polyester pull over and 1 heavy fleece LL Bean jacket.
Legs: thin Merino wool as liner, TNF Hydrovent WPB hopefully functioning as VB, with 8 oz PG pants over that
Feet: SWL VB socks, wool socks and Polarguard booties.
Hands: VB and fleece gloves, not used.
Back up: foot section of JRB convertible MW3 for under the pad when I got cold. Also original plan for torso sized WN blue pad was to see how it would work under HH OCF pad, but never used either."

Here is a quote regarding condensation:
"And did the breathable OC plus it's big vent hole plus the VB clothing really keep the condensation at bay? Apparently so. Again, I am very surprised. Humidity when I got in was 85%. Every thing was dry. I weighed the TQ and it had not gained any moisture and had full loft. In the past I have found a few drops on the SB after really cold nights, but not this time, due to the Vbs. My feet were way too warm, at 6 or 7F!".

So why didn't I get some condensation some where inside that sock other than directly on the faux frost bib. I didn't know then, I don't know now. Will I get it another time? Maybe, don't know. Or, as I said right after that test:
"The other thing I would love comments on is why I was so dry in the HH over cover, and how the condensation I got on my fleece frost bib was liquid, not frost. And everything else(net/OC) dry! I was really expecting a lot of frost and condensation inside that OC.".

[Grumpy Squatch]

Lots of good stuff in this thread. I have an overcover for my Sparrow which I tend to use when temps are well below 20°. For me the issue is that I hate having too much stuff on my head at night. If I can add enough warmth to my sleep system to avoid a mask, I'll gladly suffer some condensation.

In my testing (two nights using a good weather station in my back yard and a calibrated themperature recorder) I've found an overcover consistently adds between 10° and 25° F to the inside environment. If that means I can sleep at -15° F with just a down hat instead of a full hood, I'll gladly shovel snow out of my hammock. Here's the thread where I posted the initial test: https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/...-Overcover-Add. I confirmed it again earlier this year at -11°F.

In other uses during regular camping, I've found only one way to reduce condensation and luckily that works for me: I sleep on my side and in an asym hammock with the cover on, position my face right at an unzipped hole in the cover. I hold the fabric flap open with a small binder clip. Since I sleep on my left side 99% of the time anyway in a hammock, this literally puts my nose and mouth inches away from the zipper and most of my breath seems to exit rather than build up inside like if I try to sleep on my back.

Since I have never in 4 years of hammocking been able to fall asleep on my back, this works out great for me.

If you can stand side sleeping it might be worth a try.

[johnmark]

That is exactly why I gave up on trying to use top covers or winter socks. Just use a tarp with good coverage and appropriate quilts.