Hey guys,
I just ordered a couple of hammock kits - really quick shipping by the way. I am teaching my kid to make his own gear and I figure a hammock and a underquilt is a good start. And making my own hammock too.
I am looking for a material similar to what Columbia uses in some of their jackets that is supposed to be a breathable thermal space-blanket style. I think it would make a pretty groovy outer layer on a under/ topquilt. Any ideas?
If it's the type of fabric I'm thinking about, I worry it wouldn't be breathable enough for a top quilt. Moisture needs to be able to flow through both layers of your quilt or bad things happen. Unless you're specifically trying for a vapor barrier in which case the inner layer would be the non-breathable layer. Might be OK on an under quilt, but I wouldn't try to reinvent the wheel.
I guess it depends on what you're trying to achieve and how much it's worth to you. I haven't seen that particular fabric or one similar to it marketed by the yard, though it's easy enough to get a 2- or 3-layer waterproof breathable fabric. Quest has a pretty good selection:
http://questoutfitters.com/h20.html
But I've never seen it used for an UQ. You can use cheaper, lighter fabrics and still get good wind-resistance. I've never seen the need for water-resistance with an UQ, though some people have issues with splashing and use a simple UQ protector to combat splashes.
I'd also have concerns about it breathing well enough. WPB fabrics might breath, but I haven't found one yet that wouldn't make me sweat in a rain jacket. RSBTR offers a 7D with some WPB characteristics, but they warn to only use it as one layer of an UQ due to breathability concerns:
https://ripstopbytheroll.com/collect...-ripstop-nylon
X-Pac has a foil "sub-zero" sleeping bag liner (VS 75), but this would really concern me on breathability without learning more about it. Sounds like a sauna, but maybe it is somehow breathable or that's not an issue at sub-zero temperatures. Bring your wallet:
http://questoutfitters.com/Coated_2.htm#X-PAC
My personal thought on an UQ is to just select the appropriate insulation for my application and not worry about needing space blankets or reflective materials to be warm. It also results in a less expensive and lighter quilt. I think that RSBTR Membrane 10 and 15 are really nice quilt materials.
Caminante, son tus huellas el camino y nada más... - Antonio Machado
My guess is this material would be quite heavy per square yard compared to a very lightweight Nylon. You're probably better off just adding insulation to meet your needs as the result will likely be lighter than the columbia material for the same temperature rating.
First off, thank you for the order! Glad to hear the post office is running well and good luck on the builds!Originally Posted by Engine296
For the material question, are you talking about the dotted silver/shiny "Omniheat" fabric they use for the jacket lining in some models? That's not something we carry, but some form of it could be available elsewhere. If it's just the look you're going for, I agree that could be a flashy outer for the quilt.
If you can't find that type of fabric elsewhere, you could always look in our OutdoorINK section for existing patterns or design a custom one for print. I would go with our M15 poly taffeta for the material. We also have a new print-ready quilt material coming out very soon.
Let us know if we can help with anything!
This idea has been bandied about since that Columbia fabric came out... and there were folks at BPL experimenting with perforating mylar films to recreate it too.
Supposedly Hennessy was working on getting that shell material from the Sea to summit survival bivy for stuff as well for a similar reason.
Two things...
The 'benefit' is questionable and never seems to pan out quite right. If it did... you'd see it more often. But I believe the columbia is applied as the inner layer in a 2.5 layer WPB type shell.
IF (big if) that fabric did work... it will be proprietary for the foreseeable future and not likely to pop up for MYOG use.
What is available to answer that need is Kyle's WPB material.
https://ripstopbytheroll.com/collect...oof-breathable
There are a few others out there, but I feel this was one of the better ones.
BUT... WPB is a questionable pursuit that takes quite a bit of work to do. I find it works well enough in a shoulder season scenario to shave a little weight, or more accurately to push a lighter quilt a bit further on a fast and light trip.
Otherwise... it's easy enough to overheat and I wouldn't use it with down.
As an all in one quasi bivy/quilt made from Synthetic insulation... it has a very specialized place in fast and light kits.
But most prefer to simply use it in a bivy shell and keep the quilt out of it. The weight savings isn't so massive for most users that it's worth integrating the WPB into a quilt shell.
If you sleep in a bivy and it gets a little stickier than you planned... most of the moisture ends up between the shell of the quilt and the bivy.
When it does, you can turn your bivy inside out and let it dry. You can sun the outer shell of your quilt without loosing a lot of loft.
What you can't do is turn your quilt inside out when you get too much moisture trapped.
Perspiration, especially at the feet is the enemy of every bivy. The warmer it gets, the more likely to occur. Even experienced and careful bivy users get moisture issues at the foot end.
That is a problem you don't want a kiddo to have, and a problem adults have a hard time managing. For me... there is a limited range of WPB use with no ventilation... namely 40* and lower.
Realistically... unless you are going with a fast and light cowboy camp setup with no tarp... I can't see a realistic scenerio where the downsides of introducing WPB into your insulation outweigh avoiding them. Basically... if you got a tarp... why does your sleeping gear need to be waterproof? DWR works fine for a splash bivy even.
Membrane 10 (or 15 if you like) is a very nice shell material as is. I think it's fine for inner and outer shells... but some like the heavier 15 for durability.
The DWR is pretty good, and as a downproof fabric it does fairly well shedding wind too.
Thanks for the personal reply!
To answer your question, yes, the Omni-heat style fabric is what I was looking for - or something with a similar performance. I have a Snugpak sleeping bag from back in my Army days that has a thermal style material too. It really seems to help when it gets cold cold. I like the material because it seemed to work without adding a bunch of bulk. I'm not so interested in having a "shiny" appearance - in fact - I would prefer the opposite. I need to make a new quilt that will work down to about 20, and I am liking synthetics as the PNW is soaking wet all the time. Of course I will make a new top quilt too.
I tried out my homemade Costco underquilt for the first time in real cold last week, and found it to be sorely wanting. It seems to work fairly well down to about 35 -40. I was up in the Bellingham area last week and the temps were in the upper 20s at night with a 20 - 30 Mph gusts. Wind resistance will be needed too.
Thoughts?
Thanks for the help!
I really appreciate the attitude of the people on this forum. Let me try to clarify.
1) Weight is not so much of a problem for me - but bulk can be. I build my kit to be used primarily on Kayak trips in the PNW and on occasion when I am out of town working. I prefer to be outside whenever I can as opposed to speeling in someone elses bed at a hotel.
2) Water resistance is a necessity - waterproof-ness is a bad idea all the way around. Honestly more interested in being able to dry it out quickly. I live and go outside in the Pacific NorthWest. I live in an actual rain forest (120" last year). Things get wet here - I don't care how good your tarp is. Granted, my tarp does a pretty good job of keeping things dry for the most part, and I can certainly can do a better job there.
I would like to build a bottom quilt that is good to about 20ish with a wind/water resistant bottom. Not a big deal and certainly has been done before. As you mentioned I am planning to use synthetic materials for the quilting, as the constant moisture out here plays havoc on down. I was looking to see if a space blanket style material is available because I figured it could help to drop the bulk a bit. No biggie if it cant be done. I am looking into picking up some Goretex fabric for an outer layer as it is both wind/water resistant and breathable. It is bulky though. I can get Goretex for about 20 bucks a yard . I will look into the Membrane 10 - 15 material you mentioned. I like the RBTR people and want to support them.
Thanks!
The actual fabric that Columbia uses is patented (which includes the cosmetic design). The technology itself may not be, I can't tell.
I did find this one on Alibaba. You can probably ask about fabric weight. There are actually several "heat reflective fabrics" on Alibaba, but all except this one have 1000 yard minimum orders.
I think it would make an interesting experiment, but my gut feeling is that it would end up being heavy. Perhaps it could be used as the contact layer on the top of the underquilt.
An underquilt protector would be an easy way to block wind and retain heat. Easy to remove when you don't need it.
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