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  1. #31
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    my feeling is nobody replying on here is intent on discouraging, but rather sharing what they found in similar experiments, so you can skip some steps and refine your experiments further, if you'll want. i for one find it interesting, and since i've started playing with hammocks a few years ago i can't help myself every time i lay in one to try to model how the tension is distributed, and why it takes the shape it takes, and how to change it (which is what prompted my own experiments with uneven edges). this is basically a form of 3d shaping on "seriously load bearing fabric" (instead of the more usual "barely loaded", in the clothes industry).

    as you're clearly in "for the long run" with this one, i'll maybe suggest a few other random ideas.

    - one industry i know of that really does 3d shaping on loaded fabrics is the paragliding and kite manufacturers. these people have taken it to such a level that every glider i've seen so far makes me stop and study its construction (i try to control myself and only do it while still on the ground). i'm not sure if you have access to some gliders to have a look at, or at least kites made with the same technology (power kites, especially for snow and land use, tend to be). if you happen to know somebody who actually makes and designs them, or works in a factory that makes them, well, you can learn a lot from them.

    - one of the fundamental things about how fabric takes and distributes load is revealed by the catenary cut. take some time to study and play with it a bit, if you start understanding it intuitively, i think you'll be able to predict the shapes you will obtain much easier, and come up with ways to produce other shapes faster and with less trial and error. the cat cut is sort of the "first axis" of 3d shaping.

    - from both points above, you will also find out that some shapes might require shaping of the fabric on more than one axis. that means, shaping the edges might not be enough, sewing (and even cutting) somewhere in the middle might be required. yes, the horror. for your purpose, i would not be shy to go in that direction too, if it becomes neessary. and, frankly, yes, hammocks are all one piece of fabric, cause it's easy and the result is good enough, but that doesn't mean it has to be like that. perhaps it might be time to move on and not be scared to re-invent it, as somebody said in this thread (and then promptly disappeared for half a decade? hmm. angered the hammock gods maybe)

    - the next eye opening bit of "science" in terms of how loaded fabrics (or rather membranes) are shaped is linked to the keyword "hypar", hiperbolic paraboloid. this thing is worth researching on its own, regardless of anything else, it's just beautiful. what you can learn from it, and similar tensile fabric structures which have become an industry in itself: all those fancy looking tents at fairs and such are made based on this, and there are companies who basically do only that (design, make and deploy such structures on demand), there's a lot out there about how it works and what needs to be factored in (the beauty of the internet). i think this might seem overkill for now, but at least in the final stage when you want to refine the result and make it "nice and neat", this will come in handy.


    the above are just some of the rabbit holes i happened to "accidentally" dive through that seem related/useful. beware, if you start researching some of these, it might suck you in for a while . maybe start here (and i hope one day you will forgive me for doing this to you): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensile_structure

    if i understand correctly what you are aiming for, imho it is definitely achievable if you're determined, and what you'll learn in the process of making it will be non trivial for sure. do make sure you try to define the goal reasonably well though, btw (i mean the shape you're aiming for). and keep us posted, at least a few of us here are certainly keen.

  2. #32
    Senior Member cmoulder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blargendarg View Post
    Thank you both for your responses and for listing those designs... I admittedly have been sheltered when it comes to other designs and only have tried or read about a small handful. It's true that there *might* be too much variation between individuals for a general design to be widely successful, and even now I'm looking at it from the perspective of creating a few different models once I can hone in on one that works well for me and the few interested friends and fam, but I'm not giving up yet.

    I am VERY good at ripping out seams now, and have a few dozen variations under my belt, though they hardly count as that many completed designs.

    I've found that it's not hard to get a dead flat and level lay using a shaped end that works at least for the small height and weight range I have easily available for testing. The issue has been that comfort 'varies independently' - my first flat and level hammock was nearly a torture device - and I've found that allowing higher % of body weight to be carried (and also transitions in amount of support) in certain places works much better than others, esp hips and shoulders.

    At first I thought that it needed to be a very shallow contour to work and indeed variations of as little as a quarter inch can make big differences, but when weight is carried in the right areas it allows for a much more dramatic contour. As you might expect, with a design like this, there is a dramatic difference between being in the sweet spot and being just a little bit out of it. So making the sweet spot larger has to be a priority too - nobody wants to have to take a class to figure out how to lay in their hammock.

    I also have a couple of design ideas that allow for adjustability to the individual, which eliminates the generalizations, though I haven't gotten around to prototyping them yet. I had thought to use them as a kind of Brannock device that could be used to turn out something tailor made... might be ok as a solution but as for now the construction is complex and not totally settled so who knows. It'd be a lot to go through when most folks are ok with 'pretty flat'. This has all been driven in some respects by my brother's quest. He was in an accident when he was younger and while he fully recovered, as a result he has more particular requirements to sleep through the night in a hammock. I'd like to give him that if I can. And I guess I wouldn't mind it either.

    Thanks again. I'll take a look into those designs
    I will admit that I'm sometimes a bit too quick to whip out my Occam's Razor, although it seems to me that quite often people resort to more complicated measures without first nailing down the basics.

    But I myself like to experiment with other things and I hope that someone playing around with curved (and other) shapes makes a voila! discovery that advances the basic design.
    Five Basic Principles of Going Lighter (not me... the great Cam Honan of OZ)
    “If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.” ~ Gen. George S Patton

  3. #33
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    You guys are great. There's so much there I feel like I'll have to limit the first design and then jump into more complex study of how fabric behaves under load. This takes me back to my time in design school - the fiber design faculty were some of the most interesting folks, I think because unlike the other branches of design, there was an engineering component even to what were essentially non functional art pieces. I got a lot out of my time in the department.

    It occurs to me that there are so many preferences among people due to sleep styles etc that there are probably several 'perfect' solutions, however I'm also going back to fundamentals via The Perfect Hang to make sure I haven't missed anything the first time through. It sure is nice to be trying out designs and variations outdoors in the summer breeze.

  4. #34
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    Ignore, after all this time I'm subscribing to this thread

  5. #35
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    Sierra Madre Research or SMR has extensively experimented, researched, their own flat lay hammock with sewn curved ends.
    Their hammock is Ninox
    Ninox can be purchased online.

    I got to lay in a Ninox hammock. Just for a few minutes. The lay was incredibly flat.
    The Ninox as it’s currently manufactured is a bit heavy for backpacking, but there is always car camping.

    You can buy a Ninox hammock, and try it out for yourself. The sidewalls fabric are a bit high.

    You can carefully deconstruct your Ninox hammock, and use it for a blank to make an exact copy of Ninox’s curved end shape, using your own fabric to make a lighter backpacking version of Ninox hammock. Of course you can’t make and sell Ninox knockoffs. But you can make one that suits your needs.

    As my fading memory serves, the curved ends were kind of W shaped, except instead of an actual W, the shape was more gentle parabolic curves.

    I like the “flat lay” in my 12x6 gathered end hammock. It’s not really flat. It’s more like a really good recliner chair that will recline into an almost flat position. Neither the recliner or my 12x6 hammock are really flat. They ain’t flat. Although too me, they are more comfortable than actual horizontal flat!
    I find the recliner laid all way back and my 12x6 hammock, to both Cradle me more comfortably than a perfectly flat lay.

    Even if you don’t buy a Ninox hammock, you can research to maybe find their pattern of curved end cuts and sewing. Maybe use a Google search and or a Hammock Forums search. Often, I use Google search and it finds older posts on Hammock Forums.

    Good luck

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantom Grappler View Post

    You can carefully deconstruct your Ninox hammock, and use it for a blank to make an exact copy of Ninox’s curved end shape, using your own fabric to make a lighter backpacking version of Ninox hammock. Of course you can’t make and sell Ninox knockoffs.
    Good luck
    Is this true? I am aware of one vendor who seems to specialize in doing just this, and then capitalizing on brand recognition for market share. That is, knock offs of other vendor's basic design on multiple occasions. Perhaps with a minor tweak or two for a smoke screen. Unethical, yes, but you "can't" do it? One problem with hammocks is most of them are such a simple basic design that it would be hard not to, or at least seem not to produce a copy. Undoubtedly, it there a patent on the design that would be a different matter. I just find it annoying that some folks expend a lot of thought, resources, and time into producing a novel idea and then to have that idea ripped off by the less scrupulous is sort of xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (place your favorite descriptive noun here). Of course, this is all just my opinion based on observation. I agree with the Phantom that DIY for personal use is a different matter.

  7. #37
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    OlTrailDog, you are right, if no patent—ok to knock off, but they have to be very careful not to be caught up in trademark infringement. That can have hefty damage claims.
    Not sure if Sierra Madre Research has patented or trademarked their Ninox hammock.

  8. #38
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    That's interesting. I would expect a curved end hammock with any kind of W shape would feel like a seat with the lumbar support cranked up too high based on my experience. For that matter I don't think the ideal curve would be symmetrical either. That said, I really appreciate the info. At present, I don't have plans to sell hammocks with the design once I've found something workable, but hey, it'd be better than what I do for work now if I could make a buck doing it!

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantom Grappler View Post
    You can carefully deconstruct your Ninox hammock, and use it for a blank to make an exact copy of Ninox’s curved end shape, using your own fabric to make a lighter backpacking version of Ninox hammock.
    But keep in mind that different fabrics -with different amounts of stretch- will behave differently. This is part of the reason that no one has found a simple formula for the holy grail of a flat-lay hammock.

  10. #40
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    Hammock with curved ends?

    I know y’all right. I don’t have accurate memory of Ninox curved ends. I just remember it was not a simple curve like a lips on a smiley face logo.
    The curve undulated back and forth. That’s why I described it as a W shape-curved like an undulating parabolic shape.
    Seems like I saw this online, maybe even here on Hammock Forums.

    The hammock business is very hard for anyone to make a living. Hammocks are a niche item. Not everyone buys hammocks. Sales and money from sales is not steady. Its feast and famine.
    Last edited by Phantom Grappler; 07-04-2021 at 09:19.

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