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  1. #1
    Senior Member Flash Grundelore's Avatar
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    Curiosity questions about UQPs

    Do you really have that much to worry about with condensation below the UQ even at wicked low temps?

    Maybe I am just not that "sweaty" a kinda guy, but I don't see why the UQP needs to be breathable. I just can't see enough moisture going down through the thickness of my UQ to build up any problem.
    I seems to my inexperienced self that a more windproof/waterproof fabric would be the best protection, especially from splash-up. Or are the "breathables" more windproof/waterproof than I think?
    Inform me, please...
    I have a bunch of fabric that is looking for a project.

    Quik Edit [later]: I understand all about condensation from your breath up top on the TQ and inside the tarp, but I think my real question is whether condensation from body heat is actually going to be a problem down there below your body... especially all the way through your UQ.
    Last edited by Flash Grundelore; 12-28-2017 at 21:26.
    >> Onward thru the fog...>>
    Find me on my blog Moosenut Falls https://moosenutfalls.wordpress.com/

  2. #2
    all secure in sector 7 Shug's Avatar
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    I just got back from a one night trip and used my UQP.
    It got down to -27ºF and I used my Loco Libre -10º Mucho Habenero UQ full length. No condensation. It was not put on super tight...a wee bit loose.
    Mine UPQ is Breathable.
    Shug
    Whooooo Buddy)))) All Secure in Sector Seven

  3. #3
    Senior Member Flash Grundelore's Avatar
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    Shug... if yorth UQP twerth to be-eth UN-breathable, do you thinketh it would indeedst causeth/collecteth yon bodily moistures to an unreasonable extenth?

    [Google Translate: Would you use a non-breathable UQP or avoid?]
    I think for my own uses, given that my exposure to sub 20° conditions is highly unlikely, I am more interested in "protecting" my UQ from the splashy weather, and then possibly adding a couple of degrees to my UQ. Is condensation going to be all that big a deal at that point?
    >> Onward thru the fog...>>
    Find me on my blog Moosenut Falls https://moosenutfalls.wordpress.com/

  4. #4
    Senior Member jellyfish's Avatar
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    Curiosity questions about UQPs

    My uq protector does not breathe and I don’t get condensation.

    I’m a cold sleeper and not sweaty.
    I sew things on youtube.
    I don’t sew on commission, so please don’t ask. Thanks.

  5. #5
    Senior Member GadgetUK437's Avatar
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    Do a testing program with disposable materials and report back.
    Two silvered mylar survival blankets, taped together is a very cheap option.

    A bit of background about insensible perspiration;
    Found a good description here,
    http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/sho...99#post1217899
    gives some good background. I am sure they won't mind me reproducing it here,
    (the Some Science bit it especially good),

    Some Science:
    We humans have a challenge, we are primarily a tropical creature, that really only thrives when our bodies are subjected to tropical conditions. At the skin/atmosphere interface our body attempts to maintain a humidity of 70-80%. This is achieved through vaporisation of water, or what we typically call sweating. But in reality, what we think of as sweating, is really excessive vaporisation followed by condensation on the skins surface or in our clothing. While we are exercising during the day, we are typically producing large quantities of metabolic heat, in order to maintain an ideal temperature our body reacts by vaporizing additional moisture, and we behaviourally should remove layers to reduce insulation and allow the metabolic heat to dissipate as water vapor before it condenses.

    In the winter or cool weather, most of us will wear a base layer, either synthetic or woolen. When functioning properly this layer is capable of 'wicking' the water vapor away from our skin before it has the opportunity to condense as liquid sweat, soak our clothing and possibly result in overcooling. However, once we are at rest our body is producing much less metabolic heat, yet it still needs to maintain the 70-80% humidity at the skin/atmosphere interface. In cold climates we now have some challenges. Now that we have all that information out on the table, let's put it together. Our base layer itself is working against our bodies innate tendency to maintain a high humidity at the skin surface. As we release needed water vapor, our clothing is busy attempting to move this required vapor away from the skin.

    To create water vapor is an enormously energy intensive endeavour. To be precise 4.186J are required to raise 1g of water 1C. But to turn that same gram of water into vapor requires 2,257 j/g. The heat of vaporization is not being used to raise the temperature of water, but merely to break the intermolecular bonds between adjacent molecules and allow the to escape as water. What does this mean to us? The more you sweat, the more heat you lose, the more energy you lose. Or another way, the more energy utilized to create water vapor, the colder you will be. So to conserve heat, we need to reduce the quantity of water lost through vaporisation.

    Vapor Barrier (VP) Function and Usage:
    At the simplest level, a VP restricts the loss of water vapour, and by default creates a microclimate with 100% humidity. If we are encased in 100% humidity in our environment, then our body does not need to release additional moisture to achieve the desired tropical skin level condition.

    If we are exercising and producing large quantities of metabolic heat, we are also likely to need to cool our bodies via sweating. Sweat is released as water vapor, the creation of water vapour results in heat loss (aka. as cooling), etc. If you are using a vapour barrier during intensive exercise, then you will be trapping large quantities of condensed vapor (sweat) in your clothing and against your skin, and will likely suffer from a few olfactory challenges and potentially debilitating "pruning".

    On the other hand, when we are sleeping in cold conditions the retention of heat energy is tremendously important and we are unlikely to be producing any excess metabolic heat. Our bodies will only be vaporizing adequate moisture to maintain the ideal skin level of humidity.

    Back to the Recommendations:
    The Canadian military in researching sleep and clothing systems for usage in arctic conditions did a couple of interesting studies. The studies were looking at deep cold, between 20 and 40 below zero celsius. The following items are useful for us to address at this point

    Incontinent water loss is 500 -1000ml/night (think evaporative loss not incontinence)
    Sleeping bags gain an average 15g/hour during usage due to ice buildup in the insulation, or approximately 500g during 24 hours of usage

    In cold weather we are unable to produce enough heat to push the vapor through our sleeping bags prior to condensation and crystallization within the insulation. This reduces the insulative quality, increases weight, and overtime can reduce our comfort level. By utilizing a VP, we reduce heat loss, reduce moisture/weight buildup in our sleeping bag and increase our overall comfort. But this still leaves us with the final recommendation: to wear it over a thin insulative layer. Simple, plastic bags against our skin feels really nasty.


    Another fun-fact, at rest (at room temperature), we lose about 400ml (14oz) of water by insensible perspiration and another 400ml through respiration.
    So that's about 130ml (4.5oz) in a eight hour night. But there are many variables, both environmentally and within the body that can skew that average both ways. For example, medical conditions, such as obesity and diabetes, can certainly increase insensible perspiration. So that's an issue for over a 1/3 of the US population ( with the UK catching up fast).

    For overnighters, you are unlikely to build up enough moisture in your insulation to worry about. But multi-day trips, it is definitely a consideration.



    --
    Gadget

  6. #6
    all secure in sector 7 Shug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Grundelore View Post
    Shug... if yorth UQP twerth to be-eth UN-breathable, do you thinketh it would indeedst causeth/collecteth yon bodily moistures to an unreasonable extenth?

    [Google Translate: Would you use a non-breathable UQP or avoid?]
    I think for my own uses, given that my exposure to sub 20° conditions is highly unlikely, I am more interested in "protecting" my UQ from the splashy weather, and then possibly adding a couple of degrees to my UQ. Is condensation going to be all that big a deal at that point?
    I think it would be highly possible as I pump out heat and Shug Gravy.
    Shug Gravy = condensation
    Whooooo Buddy)))) All Secure in Sector Seven

  7. #7
    Senior Member Tyroler Holzhacker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GadgetUK437 View Post
    Do a testing program with disposable materials and report back.
    Two silvered mylar survival blankets, taped together is a very cheap option.

    A bit of background about insensible perspiration;
    Found a good description here,
    http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/sho...99#post1217899
    gives some good background. I am sure they won't mind me reproducing it here,
    (the Some Science bit it especially good),

    Some Science:
    We humans have a challenge, we are primarily a tropical creature, that really only thrives when our bodies are subjected to tropical conditions. At the skin/atmosphere interface our body attempts to maintain a humidity of 70-80%. This is achieved through vaporisation of water, or what we typically call sweating. But in reality, what we think of as sweating, is really excessive vaporisation followed by condensation on the skins surface or in our clothing. While we are exercising during the day, we are typically producing large quantities of metabolic heat, in order to maintain an ideal temperature our body reacts by vaporizing additional moisture, and we behaviourally should remove layers to reduce insulation and allow the metabolic heat to dissipate as water vapor before it condenses.

    In the winter or cool weather, most of us will wear a base layer, either synthetic or woolen. When functioning properly this layer is capable of 'wicking' the water vapor away from our skin before it has the opportunity to condense as liquid sweat, soak our clothing and possibly result in overcooling. However, once we are at rest our body is producing much less metabolic heat, yet it still needs to maintain the 70-80% humidity at the skin/atmosphere interface. In cold climates we now have some challenges. Now that we have all that information out on the table, let's put it together. Our base layer itself is working against our bodies innate tendency to maintain a high humidity at the skin surface. As we release needed water vapor, our clothing is busy attempting to move this required vapor away from the skin.

    To create water vapor is an enormously energy intensive endeavour. To be precise 4.186J are required to raise 1g of water 1C. But to turn that same gram of water into vapor requires 2,257 j/g. The heat of vaporization is not being used to raise the temperature of water, but merely to break the intermolecular bonds between adjacent molecules and allow the to escape as water. What does this mean to us? The more you sweat, the more heat you lose, the more energy you lose. Or another way, the more energy utilized to create water vapor, the colder you will be. So to conserve heat, we need to reduce the quantity of water lost through vaporisation.

    Vapor Barrier (VP) Function and Usage:
    At the simplest level, a VP restricts the loss of water vapour, and by default creates a microclimate with 100% humidity. If we are encased in 100% humidity in our environment, then our body does not need to release additional moisture to achieve the desired tropical skin level condition.

    If we are exercising and producing large quantities of metabolic heat, we are also likely to need to cool our bodies via sweating. Sweat is released as water vapor, the creation of water vapour results in heat loss (aka. as cooling), etc. If you are using a vapour barrier during intensive exercise, then you will be trapping large quantities of condensed vapor (sweat) in your clothing and against your skin, and will likely suffer from a few olfactory challenges and potentially debilitating "pruning".

    On the other hand, when we are sleeping in cold conditions the retention of heat energy is tremendously important and we are unlikely to be producing any excess metabolic heat. Our bodies will only be vaporizing adequate moisture to maintain the ideal skin level of humidity.

    Back to the Recommendations:
    The Canadian military in researching sleep and clothing systems for usage in arctic conditions did a couple of interesting studies. The studies were looking at deep cold, between 20 and 40 below zero celsius. The following items are useful for us to address at this point

    Incontinent water loss is 500 -1000ml/night (think evaporative loss not incontinence)
    Sleeping bags gain an average 15g/hour during usage due to ice buildup in the insulation, or approximately 500g during 24 hours of usage

    In cold weather we are unable to produce enough heat to push the vapor through our sleeping bags prior to condensation and crystallization within the insulation. This reduces the insulative quality, increases weight, and overtime can reduce our comfort level. By utilizing a VP, we reduce heat loss, reduce moisture/weight buildup in our sleeping bag and increase our overall comfort. But this still leaves us with the final recommendation: to wear it over a thin insulative layer. Simple, plastic bags against our skin feels really nasty.


    Another fun-fact, at rest (at room temperature), we lose about 400ml (14oz) of water by insensible perspiration and another 400ml through respiration.
    So that's about 130ml (4.5oz) in a eight hour night. But there are many variables, both environmentally and within the body that can skew that average both ways. For example, medical conditions, such as obesity and diabetes, can certainly increase insensible perspiration. So that's an issue for over a 1/3 of the US population ( with the UK catching up fast).

    For overnighters, you are unlikely to build up enough moisture in your insulation to worry about. But multi-day trips, it is definitely a consideration.



    --
    Gadget
    Thanks for the science lesson, Poindexter.

  8. #8
    Senior Member rais'n hammock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GadgetUK437 View Post
    Do a testing program with disposable materials and report back.
    Two silvered mylar survival blankets, taped together is a very cheap option.

    A bit of background about insensible perspiration;
    Found a good description here,
    http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/sho...99#post1217899
    gives some good background. I am sure they won't mind me reproducing it here,
    (the Some Science bit it especially good),

    Some Science:
    We humans have a challenge, we are primarily a tropical creature, that really only thrives when our bodies are subjected to tropical conditions. At the skin/atmosphere interface our body attempts to maintain a humidity of 70-80%. This is achieved through vaporisation of water, or what we typically call sweating. But in reality, what we think of as sweating, is really excessive vaporisation followed by condensation on the skins surface or in our clothing. While we are exercising during the day, we are typically producing large quantities of metabolic heat, in order to maintain an ideal temperature our body reacts by vaporizing additional moisture, and we behaviourally should remove layers to reduce insulation and allow the metabolic heat to dissipate as water vapor before it condenses.

    In the winter or cool weather, most of us will wear a base layer, either synthetic or woolen. When functioning properly this layer is capable of 'wicking' the water vapor away from our skin before it has the opportunity to condense as liquid sweat, soak our clothing and possibly result in overcooling. However, once we are at rest our body is producing much less metabolic heat, yet it still needs to maintain the 70-80% humidity at the skin/atmosphere interface. In cold climates we now have some challenges. Now that we have all that information out on the table, let's put it together. Our base layer itself is working against our bodies innate tendency to maintain a high humidity at the skin surface. As we release needed water vapor, our clothing is busy attempting to move this required vapor away from the skin.

    To create water vapor is an enormously energy intensive endeavour. To be precise 4.186J are required to raise 1g of water 1C. But to turn that same gram of water into vapor requires 2,257 j/g. The heat of vaporization is not being used to raise the temperature of water, but merely to break the intermolecular bonds between adjacent molecules and allow the to escape as water. What does this mean to us? The more you sweat, the more heat you lose, the more energy you lose. Or another way, the more energy utilized to create water vapor, the colder you will be. So to conserve heat, we need to reduce the quantity of water lost through vaporisation.

    Vapor Barrier (VP) Function and Usage:
    At the simplest level, a VP restricts the loss of water vapour, and by default creates a microclimate with 100% humidity. If we are encased in 100% humidity in our environment, then our body does not need to release additional moisture to achieve the desired tropical skin level condition.

    If we are exercising and producing large quantities of metabolic heat, we are also likely to need to cool our bodies via sweating. Sweat is released as water vapor, the creation of water vapour results in heat loss (aka. as cooling), etc. If you are using a vapour barrier during intensive exercise, then you will be trapping large quantities of condensed vapor (sweat) in your clothing and against your skin, and will likely suffer from a few olfactory challenges and potentially debilitating "pruning".

    On the other hand, when we are sleeping in cold conditions the retention of heat energy is tremendously important and we are unlikely to be producing any excess metabolic heat. Our bodies will only be vaporizing adequate moisture to maintain the ideal skin level of humidity.

    Back to the Recommendations:
    The Canadian military in researching sleep and clothing systems for usage in arctic conditions did a couple of interesting studies. The studies were looking at deep cold, between 20 and 40 below zero celsius. The following items are useful for us to address at this point

    Incontinent water loss is 500 -1000ml/night (think evaporative loss not incontinence)
    Sleeping bags gain an average 15g/hour during usage due to ice buildup in the insulation, or approximately 500g during 24 hours of usage

    In cold weather we are unable to produce enough heat to push the vapor through our sleeping bags prior to condensation and crystallization within the insulation. This reduces the insulative quality, increases weight, and overtime can reduce our comfort level. By utilizing a VP, we reduce heat loss, reduce moisture/weight buildup in our sleeping bag and increase our overall comfort. But this still leaves us with the final recommendation: to wear it over a thin insulative layer. Simple, plastic bags against our skin feels really nasty.


    Another fun-fact, at rest (at room temperature), we lose about 400ml (14oz) of water by insensible perspiration and another 400ml through respiration.
    So that's about 130ml (4.5oz) in a eight hour night. But there are many variables, both environmentally and within the body that can skew that average both ways. For example, medical conditions, such as obesity and diabetes, can certainly increase insensible perspiration. So that's an issue for over a 1/3 of the US population ( with the UK catching up fast).

    For overnighters, you are unlikely to build up enough moisture in your insulation to worry about. But multi-day trips, it is definitely a consideration.



    --
    Gadget
    I had heard of the idea that you lose a litre of sweat a night. 130ml sounds more plausible. I think the environment we are sleeping in will have just as much to do with the moisture as what we do to it. Insulation will naturally absorb moisture in humid climates. The heat produced from ones body will help control that absorption by allowing the air to move out away from the body. (Heat Transfer is always from a hot source toward the cold source; cold does not move toward heat. Think natural convection.)

    A couple of fun articles to add to the discussion.

    straight-dope-do-you-really-sweat-one-liter-each-night

    health.howstuffworks.com/sweating-while-sleeping
    Outdoors > Indoors
    I love me some XeroShoes
    “An optimist is a man who plants two acorns and buys a hammock.” ― Jean de Lattre de Tassigny

  9. #9
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    Our underquilt protector/poncho for the RR is silnylon and I have definately had frost on the inside of it in below freezing conditions. Regarding a breathable one, one made out of a good quilt fabric will block the vast majority of the wind hitting it, the remaining tiny fraction that makes it through is easily stopped by the shell of your uq. I can't see a benefit of a silnylon one for cold conditions. The only reason that model is silnylon is to double as a poncho, and we do not recommend it for below freezing conditions for the reason above. In sub freezing conditions you generally need higher breathability than when temps are above freezing because the same amount of air absorbs less moisture when it is colder.

    You do pass a good bit of moisture through your quilt, people have determined this by weighing quilts before and after a trip in cold wet conditions, in really bad conditions some moisture will remain trapped inside the quilt, and you don't want to do anything to make that worse. Plus a coated fabric is heavier and more expensive than the same fabric un-coated.

  10. #10
    TxAggie's Avatar
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    Considering people who use reflectix as under insulation, most prominently HH users, complain that condensation is an issue, then I would have to go with the thought that yes, without a breathable outer layer, underquilts definitely have the potential to build up condensation inside the down.

    Just my own rambling thoughts.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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