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  1. #21
    Senior Member OneClick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T- Minus View Post
    you could PM it lol.
    Just wanted to give the movie buffs a laugh A joke about nautical references.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by souperjen24 View Post
    My question is specifically related to the differences of these companies in their regular line vs. their economy line. I can see that they are using less fill power (800 vs. 900 or 850), and also different material, each of which makes the quilt a bit heavier. Besides weight, how much does the fill power and/or material effect how small the quilt will be able to compress? I feel like that is another point I'd like to consider, besides weight and price. I've recently switched to a smaller backpack, and space is even more critical for me now. When I see it on paper, it doesn't seem like a huge difference at all... for example:

    LL's 10* Ghost Pepper (52" wide, 70" long): 900 fill / 13oz fill weight / 19.1oz total weight
    LL's 10* Serrano (52" wide, 70" long): 800 fill / 14oz fill weight / 20.2oz total weight
    (Note: I know another difference between these two quilts is their baffle style... not sure that factors into my choice here because I have no experience with any of the baffle styles, so I have nothing really to compare it to!)

    HG's 10* Burrow (50" wide, 69" long): 850 fill / 13.3oz fill weight / 19.84oz total weight
    HG's 10* Burrow Econ (50" wide, 69" long): 800 fill / 14.4oz fill weight / 23.3oz total weight

    !
    Finished weight and cost are pretty easy to evaluate/compare.
    Features and baffle design... bit tougher but if you're talking apples to apples (like the burrow vs the burrow econ) you probably are down to material only.
    Not a comment either way on alternate baffle designs- but baffle design and orientation can be something to consider when comparing across brands.

    So material only-
    What most folks don't talk much about or realize is the shell material and how much of an effect that has on pack size. Hammock folks have a bit of an advantage when discussing this because you regularly pack huge hunks of various materials. Something like a premium 10d .67 ounces per yard taffeta shell packs much smaller than a generic 1.0 ripstop. The baffle material itself may be a factor as well.
    Some folks just use netting... which packs bulkier than fabric says anyone who has packed up a fronkey style bug net.
    Some folks use the same premium material the shell is made from, some use the same cheap material... in which case the bug net may even pack smaller.

    So a cheaper 1.1 shell material could potentially require the same pack space as the fill itself. Again... not talked about much and the only way to see it is apples to apples (say a .67 oz burrow, a .90 burrow, and a 1.1 oz econ burrow.)
    How exactly does that translates to liters of pack size? Hard to say without a head to head but a liter would be on the outside end... but it might save you a lot of smashing on your down too.

    The down itself... you're not really talking any big difference in pack size IMO.
    Econ vs burrow above-
    850 fill / 13.3oz fill weight = 11305cuin
    800 fill / 14.4oz fill weight= 11520cuin
    Notwithstanding that they should match...(it's only 8g so that's silly talk really)

    A pound of down of just about any 800+ fill can be compressed to fit pretty easily in a one gallon ziplock bag... or about 4L so unless you're talking 550 fill vs 950 fill... not much to talk about there on pack size.

    For a bit of further proof- Enlightened equipment does a good job of showing that apples to apples fill difference- https://support.enlightenedequipment...628-Revelation
    Basically it shows that 850-950 fill with the same shell material in the exact same shell... results in them shipping you the same stuff sack regardless.

    SO... long drawn out conclusion... if pack size is a factor... the biggest driver in a regular vs economy bag is the shell material itself.
    If the shell is not compressing well... then the down doesn't get compressed as well as it could so the whole package is bigger.
    If you're talking 800+ fills then you're talking a penalty ounce or so... but not any penalty liters.

    There are also some artificially low down prices out there at the moment... so if it was me...
    I'd buy an economy for kiddos, etc. Or if you just want a nice beater quilt for car camping you don't plan to backpack (much) with.

    If I were buying a nice one for me to use backpacking- I'd buy the premium down quilt of my choice. It wasn't that long ago that quilts were in the $300-$600 range because of down costs...I can't imagine it will last much longer than this season or the next. You're getting a big break on the down right now- don't cheap out on the shell or features... in my mind you've already saved $100+ on something you will get 5-10 years out of if you treat it well. (And/or pick up an econ to beat up when you don't need the best one in your quiver since down is so cheap).


    PS... 850 fill is plenty IMO. The premium you pay on the 850vs900 is money better spent on the shell materials... and the payoff isn't that great in the real world on that upgrade.
    I'm a SUL guy or even XUL guy at times... but 900+ fills have never been much more than a spec sheet upgrade vs. actual field performance upgrade on trips where you get more than 3 days from the Laundromat.

  3. #23
    Senior Member kitsapcowboy's Avatar
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    Never even coming close to being an ultralight/superlight hiker (or wanting to be), I am compelled to challenge the idea that LLG's saver series quilts are "not backpackable" just because they don't compress as well as their premium down quilts; the Saver Series compress better than comparably rated synthetic quilts, and LLG synthetic quilts are perfectly acceptable for backpacking when hikers aren't obsessing over numbers. Even backpackers who are considered "lightweight" or even "traditional" by today's current definitions carry loads that are a a fraction of what was considered a lightweight load ten or twenty years ago, and back then people still found a way to cover the miles. By all means, anyone who wants enjoy the state of the art should by a premium quilt, but the economy quilts are by no means impractical or unsuitable to the task, IMHO.

    #firstworldproblems
    Last edited by kitsapcowboy; 07-06-2017 at 14:25.
    Smart graphic design for all your needs by BGD

  4. #24
    Senior Member OneClick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kitsapcowboy View Post
    Never even coming close to being an ultralight/superlight hiker (or wanting to be), I am compelled to challenge the idea that LLG's saver series quilts are "not backpackable" just because they don't compress as well as their premium down quilts; the Saver Series compress better than comparably rated synthetic quilts, and LLG synthetic quilts are perfectly acceptable for backpacking when hikers aren't obsessing over numbers. Even backpackers who are considered "lightweight" or even "traditional" by today's current definitions carry loads that are a a fraction of what was considered a lightweight load ten or twenty years ago, and back then people still found a way to cover the miles.

    #firstworldproblemsnsidered
    I used to be that way, totally laughing at people trimming down maps and swapping out a 52g battery for a 46g battery that cost 2x as much. I would think "man, you need to hit the gym if xx ounces makes a difference. Then add the high cost of gear to of it all.

    Then one day I pulled a complete 180. I "get it" now. Every little bit counts. It's not just for comfort and ease, but the overall mentality. Doing more with less, simplifying, cutting weight wherever you can. Money is often a limitation, but cutting the weight is an ongoing process. I try to pick the low hanging fruit then work on the other items. But I'm still far from ultralight...hit a ceiling in so many words. But I'm ok with that, feeling like I reached the edge of my comfort zone.

  5. #25
    Senior Member kitsapcowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markr6 View Post
    ...But I'm ok with that, feeling like I reached the edge of my comfort zone.
    Ah, but you hit the nail precisely on the head, mark... your comfort zone. You have yours, I have mine, etc. That's the essence of HYOH. Your perspective is perfectly valid. That said, a pronouncement that economy quilts are somehow unsuitable for backpacking just because they aren't the lightest is antithetical to HYOH.
    Smart graphic design for all your needs by BGD

  6. #26
    Senior Member OneClick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kitsapcowboy View Post
    Ah, but you hit the nail precisely on the head, mark... your comfort zone. You have yours, I have mine, etc. That's the essence of HYOH. Your perspective is perfectly valid. That said, a pronouncement that economy quilts are somehow unsuitable for backpacking just because they aren't the lightest is antithetical to HYOH.
    Yes, but my point was "every little bit counts". Comfort is irrelevant in that discussion since it's a fact. Unless you want to argue every little bit doesn't count, and that ounces don't add up to pounds.

    Am I comfortable with a 22oz quilt? Yes
    Am I comfortable with a 16oz quilt? Yes

    So that's that. A separate topic.

    But BACK on topic, I do agree that they are both backpackable. To say 3 extra ounces and a % of increased volume (likely well in the single digits) is a bit silly. All of us likely backpacked with 3lb sleeping bags not so long ago, and that wasn't crazy.

    I'm just saying for the use I get out of my quilts, the extra cost of having the (within reason) lightest option is very beneficial no matter how you look at it. Especially as time goes on.

  7. #27
    Senior Member rweb82's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kitsapcowboy View Post
    Never even coming close to being an ultralight/superlight hiker (or wanting to be), I am compelled to challenge the idea that LLG's saver series quilts are "not backpackable" just because they don't compress as well as their premium down quilts; the Saver Series compress better than comparably rated synthetic quilts, and LLG synthetic quilts are perfectly acceptable for backpacking when hikers aren't obsessing over numbers. Even backpackers who are considered "lightweight" or even "traditional" by today's current definitions carry loads that are a a fraction of what was considered a lightweight load ten or twenty years ago, and back then people still found a way to cover the miles. By all means, anyone who wants enjoy the state of the art should by a premium quilt, but the economy quilts are by no means impractical or unsuitable to the task, IMHO.

    #firstworldproblems
    This is a perfect explanation! I consider myself a lightweight backpacker. For a 3-day hike, my pack only weighs 20lbs. The tarp I use almost weighs 2lbs. Many folks would say it is not suitable for backpacking. Yet I use it every time I go out. With my budget, I would have had to save twice as long to get a lighter tarp- thus delaying my hiking/camping enjoyment. I decided I would rather spend less $$, in order to get out more. Might I possibly upgrade my tarp at some point? Maybe. But even if I don't, my pack is not a burden in the least bit; and it in no way hinders my ability to hike, nor does it lessen my enjoyment. I can unequivocally say that my hiking enjoyment would be zero, if I was trying to save for a cuben fiber tarp- because I still wouldn't have the money for it!

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by kitsapcowboy View Post
    Ah, but you hit the nail precisely on the head, mark... your comfort zone. You have yours, I have mine, etc. That's the essence of HYOH. Your perspective is perfectly valid. That said, a pronouncement that economy quilts are somehow unsuitable for backpacking just because they aren't the lightest is antithetical to HYOH.
    Mags says it better than I:
    https://pmags.com/hike-my-hike-****-it-hmhdi

    The OP asked a very specific question. As Mark attempted to explain, UL often has little to do with weight at the end of the day. If one has a 55+ L pack it's easy enough to set forth with any gear you like. Less so when you set out to make it all work in a 30L kit. Even less meaningful when you are happily moving down the trail.

    The OP sufficiently described their goals. If you'd care to allow them the freedom to chose their own style then the answers provided should respect those choices.

    Vendors sell both premium and economy models for a reason.
    Sussing out the subtle differences has everything to do with truly helping a fellow forum member in making the best choice for them.

  9. #29
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    Thanks everyone for your insights and thoughts and opinions! I really do appreciate it. I know some of these are subtle differences. I've also emailed some of the companies as well, to get their opinion. Just Bill, that was a lot of good info, and helped clarify some things. Thanks!

  10. #30
    Senior Member Kroma's Avatar
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    You will obtain warmth from a quilt whether its economy or premium. The economy quilt will pack down much smaller than your sleeping bag. You will save a decent amount of money at the expense of a few ounces over premium.

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