So why do 2oz overstuff?

[BigSky!]

My extra emphasis was not directed at a perception that you may not have understood markr6; rather, it was based on my re-reading of my own post and determining that I had not been clear. Once quoted I believe it inappropriate to go modify what one has previously typed.

[Secondmouse]

The Duck Down vs. Goose Down is a non-issue.
Down collection in general has improved greatly (part of the reason for these higher fill powers now).
The conventional wisdom of that market impression persists because of some stale marketing and some reality.

The reality- Duck down tops out a 100-150 FP lower than Goose Down naturally. Nothing inferior about it, the species as a whole just doesn't produce down in enough quantity at the upper limits of Fill Power.

The marketing- So folks used to tout goose down as the "premium fill" simply because the highest fill powers came from that species. So before fill power was a common term the way to differentiate your product was to market your use of goose down over duck down.

There is some debate on these 900+ fill power downs as discussed before.
I think 800/850 FP is a fine choice and worth the minor weight penalty. I'd only use 900+ FP in FKT levels of gear... it's a bit too fickle of a product IMO... and I would never buy it in anything less than 20*.

PS- Secondmouse, your comment about the bandit being a new design is an insightful one. Despite all our best efforts and experience (which UGQ has plenty of) there is always a little bit of play in any first round product and that extra bit is indeed cheap insurance.... assuming the vendor didn't have the same thought as well.

It's a bit of an odd time-
This was a much bigger deal when ounces of down were $15-30 and products were often well north of $300 or $400 a pop.
We'll see how long this down down market lasts.

And a bit of perspective is in order as well...
You have something available now like the HG Econ line. With a "budget" minded 1.1 taffeta shell and 800 FP Goose Down for well under $200 for even a zero degree quilt.
Basically a tried and true premium design from a quality cottage vendor with "cheap" materials.

I still have an old North Face Inferno (-40*ish mummy) from when I worked there nearly 20 years ago now... it was mega cutting edge technology and well over $500.
The shell material was much heavier than 1.1 ounces and it was filled with an INSANE 750 FP down. Almost everything they sold was 550/600 FP and still considered great... now that stuff would be junk. (Sorta)

Enlightened Equipment was one of the first vendors I am aware of that dropped their prices when down pricing first started recovering... some still haven't. But for those who have dropped the prices you're getting the same gear that ran up to double the current price a few years ago because of the down market bottoming out. So "investing in down" does actually take on some meaning at the moment... and dismissing a $200 quilt as "cheap" is no longer true at all.

thanks. I wasn't making a distinction about goose down for any reason than that's how they describe it. I was actually remarking more on the fill power being untreated 850. I've never used higher than 800 and wondered how it would behave relative to what I am familiar with.

I have two down quilts/bags that voids are evident when held to the light and I admit, this has always made me a bit uneasy. I figured one extra ounce was cheap insurance...

[Five Tango]

Call me Archie Bunker but I think a little extra down makes it better.That said,I did not overstuff my summer quilt but ordered a 40 stock off the shelf.I felt like a 50 degree summer quilt is what I really wanted but since I get cold pretty easily decided to fudge ten degrees and go with a stock stuffed 40.Maybe it's just psychological.

[Secondmouse]

I received my 20* UGQ Bandit TQ with 1oz "overstuff", and first impressions are it's beautiful! I got to spend some time talking with Paul and Missy at the Hootenany Hang and he detailed the design and construction. It has remarkable attention to detail and the design is amazing.

I ordered mine with 1oz "overstuff" mainly because of nervousness with the new design and also "why not?" now that I have this quilt in hand, I am not sorry I ordered extra, but honestly, I would not do so again - it simply doesn't need it!..

Paul explained to me the level of calculation of the proper amount of fill that goes into each individual chamber, depending on volume AND where on the quilt they are located. He has "an app for that" and then says their practice is to add app 30% more. IOW, if the program says 10oz, their standard fill is 13oz. I looked at his and Missy's personal Bandit quilts and I could see that there was no thin spots or voids in the down, regardless of the direction I held them up.

The important thing that I took away from this, though, was the drape. this new Bandit utilizes vertical tubes with a separate foot box. the downside of overfilling chambers is it deforms them and in horizontal tube quilts, it makes them rigid and they "bridge" the user's body. Paul was very proud of the way this new quilt draped down onto the body eliminating cold spots.

I'm a believer and a happy owner. can't wait for cold weather...

[T- Minus]

The buyer beware in me, cautions....
Not that any reputable vendor would behave in this manner or not, But would your really even know if you had received an extra oz. of down? Sure you can weight it, but most products have a range; an expected weight based on fabric weight, down, and experience constructing their product. I guess you just have to take their word for it. You want even get to check it out till you have it and then you don't really have a base to compare. I am sure you get what you pay for or just a little more cause you don't really know what you bought but decided that you would make sure with that extra oz. or 2.

[YakNPack]

Totally agree as well, lol.
Especially when we are talking about a specific vendor who seems to do well with that particular option and customers are happy with the option.
A decent rule of thumb is likely 10%. So dig up the spec that tells you the amount of fill in the product you want to buy- and don't buy more than 10% extra... roughly speaking.
Most folks just want stuff that works and won't break/fail. Most folks will spend a bit extra ($ and grams) for peace of mind. Most folks don't mess with sleeping gear.
So if you're buying overstuff for that reason... have at it as I agree with the concept as well.

If you're buying the overstuff thinking to fine tune the rating somehow... that's a faulty concept and wasted money/weight. Just buy 10* warmer... it used to be roughly 20* increments or the basic 4 seasons worth of options. Now just about every established cottage vendor offers 10* increments and I feel that's more than enough customization available. So just trust that vendor you did all the research on and rely on the rating they established.

I've got a psycho UL background, but I also have a background as an Eagle Scout and a realist.
To an extent... if I am spending really serious money on really serious outdoors gear... I expect that vendor to be able to accurately go right to the edge of what is needed as that's what I'm buying. It's relatively easy to "buy safe"... much harder to buy exactly what you need and nothing else- but that's not super realistic either and that's where the term "Stupid light" comes in.

The conversation is an interesting one for those who want to have it.
But like most things- drilling down details is largely un-needed. Just like excessively minded gram weenies- most of this stuff has little or no effect on the real world.

In reality:
Anyone who spends enough time in the woods knows there is no such thing as 40*.
There's 40* as a high temp on an otherwise freezing cold day. There's 40* for a few minutes at 4:00 Am when the low officially happens on an otherwise nice 65* fall day.
There's 40* in spring that feels like 60* after winter... and 40* in late fall that feels like 20* after summer.
40* with wind, 40* with rain, 40* with sunshine, 40* when it's just damp and 40* when it's overcast and dry.
There's 40* when you're stone sober and 40* when you're dead drunk too, lol.
Without a thermometer in hand not a single one of us would agree it was 40* in everyone of those scenarios. Heck sitting around the campfire we all rarely agree what temp it actually is. There is a good reason for the old joke about the husband and wife who fight over the thermostat.

Temp ratings are a source of comparison and a rough guide, not gospel. Most regular gear is designed for the worst possible version of that 40* because somebody did bring a thermometer and ignored all the other factors and "felt" cold, complained, and the product was adjusted to compensate. Or if you are buying SUL gear... it wasn't... they will do what I do... and science you to death, lol.
Point there being... the brand you're buying from likely has a customer base with similar expectations to yours... so likely you'll agree with the rating if you agree with their style/philosophy.

I tease my Florida customers if they want a Florida 40 or a Chicago 40.
Some here and at WB may note that if you ask me for advice on sleeping gear I will ask if you mean a Hammock Forums, a WhiteBlaze, or a backpacking light xx* bag?
They are not the same... but each of those folks is generally happy with their respective rating system.

At the end of the day it's how you feel... if you'd rather not feel anything at all on the subject... just buy something 10-20* past your best guess and be done with it.
The worst case scenario is you end up buying a set of warmer weather gear down the line because you bought "too safe".

If nothing else, the fabric innovations and the general post SUL boom that occured a few years back have really infiltrated every product these days. It is rare to find a vendor using anything heavier than a 1 oz shell material. The difference between wally world gear and cutting edge UL gear is still vast...
But the gap between well made cottage vendor and cutting edge UL is often only a few ounces difference so many of these once "critical" specs aren't really that critical anymore. It's night and day compared to 10 years ago.
There is hardly a vendor I can think of who isn't making good quality gear in the cottage industry, heck even plenty of REI gear that is just fine too. I could probably walk into REI and put together a decent sub-10lb kit. 10 years ago, the only way to do that was to MYOG.

So long as you get out and use it- that's all that matters to me.

Well Crap! I am a new to all of this and reading everything that I can find to determine the best under quilt temp rating and I read "I tease my Florida customers if they want a Florida 40 or a Chicago 40." That has to be the most educated thing that I have read on the subject and also has to be the most pain butt answer at the same time.

Sigh

[Kroma]

Well Crap! I am a new to all of this and reading everything that I can find to determine the best under quilt temp rating and I read "I tease my Florida customers if they want a Florida 40 or a Chicago 40." That has to be the most educated thing that I have read on the subject and also has to be the most pain butt answer at the same time.

Sigh

Relax dude. You will stay warm with any cottage vendor quilt you choose. Just pick one that gives you a little margin for error on the low temps and you'll be fine. If you do a lot of camping in lows of 45 and up then get a 40...then get a 20 if you start camping in the 30s....

Don't over analyze it...just buy one and be warm....

[Secondmouse]

The buyer beware in me, cautions....
Not that any reputable vendor would behave in this manner or not, But would your really even know if you had received an extra oz. of down? Sure you can weight it, but most products have a range; an expected weight based on fabric weight, down, and experience constructing their product. I guess you just have to take their word for it. You want even get to check it out till you have it and then you don't really have a base to compare. I am sure you get what you pay for or just a little more cause you don't really know what you bought but decided that you would make sure with that extra oz. or 2.

are you responding to my post just above, on the 20* Bandit I just received, or just in general? either way, I guess I wouldn't know unless I had two different quilts on hand to weigh, I'd just have to trust the seller...

but after having the discussion I had with Paul about the program they use to determine the proper fill volume for each individual chamber, I am very impressed with their attention to detail and confident that the extra ounce is distributed proportionally throughout. the footbox has it's own formula of fill based on warmth of feet, shape/size, "bridging", and other factors and you can request additional fill just for the footbox. it was all thought out and scientific, not haphazard.

here's the thing - the Bandit is a new style of quilt with vertical baffles tapering down into a horizontal baffle footbox. It's a new design and the worrier in me said, "why not add just a touch more for insurance". it was introductory pricing so adding an extra ounce was still far below the regular price with no overstuff whatsoever.

I'm not expecting this quilt to be an "X" degrees warmer than its rating, I just wanted it to be "true" to it's rating. having met Paul and Missy, I realize now I had nothing to be worried about. truly good folk...

[PappyAmos]

For me, my 30 deg Flight Jacket keeps my body warm well down into the 20s but my feet would start feeling chilly in the upper 30s without an ounce or two overstuff in the footbox.

[YakNPack]

Relax dude. You will stay warm with any cottage vendor quilt you choose. Just pick one that gives you a little margin for error on the low temps and you'll be fine. If you do a lot of camping in lows of 45 and up then get a 40...then get a 20 if you start camping in the 30s....

Don't over analyze it...just buy one and be warm....

Went with the HG Incubator Econ 20 and think I made a good decision for the Midwest. Now I think I will top it off with the Burrow Econ 40 and be set. At least for a little bit.

LOL


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