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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    these days, instead of a toggle stick, I just use a carabiner. I can clip into that and not worry about slippage. When done, I can pull the carabiner out as easily as the stick.
    I do exactly the same when tree spacing and my strap length allows it. But when spacing demands whoopies, I do it "this way".
    Caminante, son tus huellas el camino y nada más... - Antonio Machado

  2. #22
    New Member Mac McSchool's Avatar
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    I do it This way.

  3. #23
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    "This" first way holds far less, "that" way (second picture) holds alot more. The Continuous Loop/whoopie is "on the knot not on the toggle" in both pictures. Neither picture neccessairly puts any more or less force on the toggle based on the direction the CL wraps I don't think....in either case you just need to make sure the bend in your CL sits above the knot.

    With most lightweight UHMWPE webbings, the webbing will start to slip in the 200 something lbs range when tied as shown in the top picture, but with the second method (and same webbing) the knot will roll to the side somewhat at about 400 lbs letting a tiny bit of webbing through and then holds strong till my toggle breaks (did not have a toggle on hand that would hold more than 800 lbs which is about how much force it seems to take to snap a (dry pine or fir not sure) toggle that is 3/4-1" or so thick

    Test was done with a come-along hooked to a mechanical force gauge.
    Last edited by warbonnetguy; 08-07-2018 at 11:59.

  4. #24
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    I really like how you've set it up and the use of the o-rings to keep it on the knot is something I never thought of. The way you have it set up makes it very clear that it's on the knot and not the toggle.

    I don't know how I messed it up but I once set up my MSH and after a minute or so there was a loud gunshot as my toggle broke and I went to ground. Definitely user error. I like the way you have it makes it obvious that the toggle can't be part of the attachment because it's behind the cord.

  5. #25
    Senior Member MikekiM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soul embrace View Post
    The first picture. You want it on the knot and behind the toggle. This way if for some reason it slipped off the knot the toggle would catch the line and maybe save you from hitting the ground. The second picture if the line slipped you would hit the ground
    This ^^^^^^
    Yes, my pack weighs 70lbs, but it's all light weight gear....
    Bob's brother-in-law

  6. #26
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    I don't think that is correct, if the second picture was taken of the backside of the knot it would look basically identical to the top picture, neither of those is more or less likely to slip off the knot, if the knot slipped "through" the continuous loop in either case it could load the toggle with weight, there is no difference in that regard to either top or bottom picture.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by warbonnetguy View Post
    "This" first way holds far less, "that" way (second picture) holds alot more. The Continuous Loop is "on the knot not on the toggle" in both pictures. Neither picture neccessairly puts any more or less force on the toggle based on the direction the CL wraps I don't think....in either case you just need to make sure the bend in your CL sits above the knot.

    With most lightweight UHMWPE webbings, the webbing will start to slip in the 200 something lbs range when tied as shown in the top picture, but with the second method (and same webbing) the knot will roll to the side somewhat at about 400 lbs letting a tiny bit of webbing through and then holds strong till my toggle breaks (did not have a toggle on hand that would hold more than 800 lbs which is about how much force it seems to take to snap a (dry pine or fir not sure) toggle that is 3/4-1" or so thick

    Test was done with a come-along hooked to a mechanical force gauge.
    How much would it take to snap one of Dutch's Titanium Toggles? Inquiring minds want to know!
    Last Saturday night after giving up on the Becket Hitch and bruising my hand in the process of yanking the knot loose,I resorted to hanging "this way" off Spyder 2.0 which had gotten "ropey" and using a Dutch Titanium Toggle on hand in my ditty bag just in case I ever needed it.No more struggling with knots or whoopies as I just dogboned off the CL and slipped it over the knot on the toggle.It worked.

  8. #28
    HandyRandy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by warbonnetguy View Post
    I don't think that is correct, if the second picture was taken of the backside of the knot it would look basically identical to the top picture, neither of those is more or less likely to slip off the knot, if the knot slipped "through" the continuous loop in either case it could load the toggle with weight, there is no difference in that regard to either top or bottom picture.
    I agree. You guys are focusing on the wrong thing. We all know when it comes to knots, if you change anything, then you need to test it to be sure it still works and to see how it’s different. The slightest difference is often a whole different beast.

    This is what WBguy said in another thread is the key to maximizing the friction inside the knot…

    “The top most part of the marlinspike knot does a 180 deg bend around the standing part of the line, if your CL is looped on so it matches that exactly, then it is the weaker version, however if it is instead a mirror opposite I don't think you would need to worry about it slipping.”

    The advice above can be achieved while still ending up with a configuration that looks like either example in the OP above simply by looping it how you prefer, and then spinning only the toggle 180° if it doesn’t follow WBguy’s advice.

    It turns out, the OP unintentionally changed the knot from the weaker version to the stronger version when he went from the top example to the lower example. But if you so chose, you could have achieved what you were actually aiming for (same weaker knot, but with loop resting on bottom) another way. You could have simply forcefully spun the whole thing around 180° and you would have the same thing, albeit temporary until you let go. This should help you see how nothing really changes by resting the loop on top or below. The knot stays the same, so same friction. The angles of forces applied are hardly changed at all, and so the forces on the toggle are nearly the same too. And I fail to see how the loop is any more or less likely to slip off the toggle, like so many suggest. On that note, I bet only large loops like the adjustable end of a whoopie ever stand a chance of slipping off the toggle, not your typical CL.

    Now regarding whether or not the loops apex should rest above or below the toggle, there is one minor advantage to resting it above. It allows the loose end to drape down “cleanly” in the middle of the loop without having to feed it through. I think this is why you see most people do it like this and consequently how we came to think it was so important.

    Question for WBguy:
    What happens when you tie the MSH upside down. I mean if you take the loose end through the loop instead of the tree end? Is it much weaker?

    You and so many others keep saying:
    “You just need to make sure the bend in your CL sits above the knot.”

    But is it actually possible to rest the loop on the toggle after all. I’m trying to figure out what needs to be done to make it happen. Can you share a pic of what it looks like when the loop rests on the toggle.

    Thank you WBguy for doing those tests. I have been trying to understand this for a while. I have finally settled on using Dutch’s new 1.5 dyneema straps and his titanium toggles directly to my CL, so I wanted to fully understand this technique. Obviously, doing it the weaker way has worked for many people so many times, but I am happy to know the better way to do it now!

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyRandy View Post
    Question for WBguy:
    What happens when you tie the MSH upside down. I mean if you take the loose end through the loop instead of the tree end? Is it much weaker?

    You and so many others keep saying:
    “You just need to make sure the bend in your CL sits above the knot.”

    But is it actually possible to rest the loop on the toggle after all. I’m trying to figure out what needs to be done to make it happen. Can you share a pic of what it looks like when the loop rests on the toggle.
    I have not tried loading an upside down MS

    Basically what I mean by the CL resting above the MS knot... is that the MS is supposed to act as a stopper knot so you don't want to spread the 2 strands of your CL/whoopie apart and try to pass the MS through it as you dress the knot...This may or may not have any effect in reality but it seems like it could put more stress on the toggle...like a bending force perhaps.

    I'll try to take a couple pictures in the next week or so

    Here's the direct link to the other thread mentioned above. For anybody interested I did some testing of the slipped becket and MS with strictly new lightweight dyneema webbings...starting on page 3 post 22: https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/...convert!/page3

  10. #30
    HandyRandy's Avatar
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    Another question for you WBguy. Do you think the diameter of the toggle makes a difference in how much the knot will hold? I don’t mean the breaking point of the toggle, but the slipping point of the knot with different sized toggles, assuming the toggle is strong enough. If it’s true that it makes a difference, then what is the ideal sized toggle to get as close to a 5:1 safety ratio as possible?

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