The Ethics of a DIY'er?

[Eidson]

I’ve mentally struggled with this question for quite some time and many times debated posting a thread to see how others thought about this topic…I can’t recall ever reading a lot of civilized discussion about these questions here, so feel free to point me in their direction if there have been discussions on this topic.

We have a very interesting community in that the DIY aspect of the hobby is so large and on the other hand, we have numerous wonderful cottage vendors that make a living on selling finished products. Whatever the personal reason for doing so (love of diy’ing, customizing something in ways a vendor doesn’t offer, etc.), we DIY’ers often knock-off a vendor’s products and create something similar or in some cases as identical as possible. Lots of great diy’ers then share plans openly on the forums and others pick these up and build their own projects.
I guess this could be applied to many different hobbies or interests, such as software/program knock-offs and the list could go on and on. There are tons of knock-off products that I do believe damage the “originals” sale. In our widespread internet days you can find plans and/or directions on how to produce many commercial items, but as I said, I’m just curious to hear how others see this as it relates to our Hammock hobby.

At what point do we cross the line? Is there a line even to be crossed?

Let’s use a very popular and well known new product as an example. The Warbonnet Wooki UQ. A well-known and respected cottage vendor releases a product that is a little bit different than what we’ve ever done or seen before (or at least that I know of).
How long before the diy’ers among us produce something almost identical and post detailed plans for others to follow? Is it “wrong” for us to do so?
Don’t get me wrong, there will be those of us that wouldn’t purchase one but might diy a knock-off for the fun/challenge of it or to see how his idea actually works, so I don’t immediately see this as a bad thing. I couldn’t imagine that a detailed breakdown of how to build your own Wooki would hurt many potential sales given WB’s existing reputation, but do others see it differently?

I have a number of projects on my ever expanding to do list and many of these are knock-offs of current vendors offerings. I try to share a lot of my projects as time allows, but should I feel guilty if I’m posting exact specs on how I “ripped off” their product on my own for others to follow?

As Dutch is a bit of an abnormality (in a good way) in both promoting the diy scene with materials and also offering great finished products, sometimes even sharing how he and the crew builds them, how does this fit in? I don’t expect Dutch to chime in on this thread, but I’m curious how people look upon diy’ing his finished products.
I’ll be honest in that I’d eventually like to diy my own quilt liner/summer sheet much like he recently released a finished product of. I think it’s a great idea; I have my own touches that I’d like to do, but I also want to make my own simply because I enjoy diy’ing these projects.
Should I share simple pictures and the idea of the project online in the nature of sharing on these forums? To take it even further, would it be wrong of me to post my detailed specs so others can easily make their own or would this potentially hurt even one sale of his finished product? I’ve never been a big “process sharer” in general as a diy’er, but I enjoy sharing my finished work and just ask the question for healthy discussion and the satisfaction of my own curiosity.

Now here is one of my next struggles. Let’s say as a diy’er I want to modify some of my existing gear that I purchased from a vendor. Would it be wrong of me to contact a vendor and ask for a particular detail so I could replicate some of their work on my own? Let’s say asking about their particular use of a zipper or pull in their product. I think I’d personally feel guilty doing, so what then if I ask openly on the forums to see if others could explain or provide details? Is this better/worse? I really don’t know.

I think that the general entirety of hammock camping has been profoundly changed by diy’ers as people have tweaked existing ideas and/or created new items that have been very beneficial to the scene (I hate using this word, but it fits). Some of our vendors even produce finished items that have had their original idea born on these forums, so how does this fit into the discussion?


Any thoughts about the ethics of a diy’er out there?

[Dutch]

This discussion has played out in different forms through the years. I believe the consensus was that if a DIYer clones a vendor then it is ethical. If they sell it, then they are profiting from someone else's design. However years ago that meant something. Now there are companies that everything is someone else's clone and really people don't say anything. So if a DIYer came out with a clone no one, IMO should be saying a word. I consider it a compliment when a DIYer clones something I have done. I sell kits and plans for how to do it. DIY was my hobby before I was a vendor and i love the passion and pride people put into their projects. I am only here because I was too cheap to buy an UQ so I came here to figure out how to make one.

This reminds me of a discussion I had with Pan from JRB maybe 7 years ago. He was upset that someone cloned and posted directions for the wearable quilt on HF. However he discovered later that not very many people can make a quilt. That person went around and showed it off to everyone. People would get envy and realize they couldn't make it but they could buy one from JRB.

Ethics are decided by the individual and your discussion has great merit in making people think about it.

[dkurfiss]

Well said Dutch! I do some DIY just not on a sewing machine. When I am working leather many times I am trying to copy what I have seen else where. I figure if it's for my personal use and I don't start selling then I don't have a problem. If I am selling my goods using some one else's design, then I just could not or would not do it. To me that is close to stealing.

[chefkeith]

I don't think I could have said it much better than Dutch.

Personally, I feel the spirit of the forum is a place to discuss DIY ideas, including clones, and to share open source knowledge. It's a place originated for us and by us, not vendors. That said, I'm thrilled the vendors are here - they are a valuable asset to the community, and in addition, they have a great place to advertise (direct, low/no cost marketing).

I believe, in the end, the majority of people are lazy and will buy stuff from vendors, even if they DIY some of their gear - I know I've certainly spent more money with vendors here than I care to admit, yet I still DIY a fair amount of stuff. Many of the vendors here have waiting lists, so I'm not entirely sure we're cutting into their profits by any significant margin, and those vendors that choose to grow should be focused on marketing beyond the forums, anyway.

I can personally remember a couple of times where a vendor called out a forum member for copying their work and selling it to other forum members. This behavior by the member is ethically dubious at best, and possibly criminal if patents were in place. Even if patents were in place, and the vendor opts to ask the forum member to stop or threatens legal action, it would not be good for their image or business.

Ultimately, I think vendors that hang around here and create personal relationships with customers, many of whom DIY, will see a net increase in sales, regardless of cloners and DIYers, thereby removing any ethical implications of making our own gear.

[SilvrSurfr]

This discussion has played out in different forms through the years. I believe the consensus was that if a DIYer clones a vendor then it is ethical. If they sell it, then they are profiting from someone else's design.

That sounds about right to me. Clone away, but when you start selling cloned stuff, that ain't right.

I think some vendors claim originality where none exists, especially when it comes to hammocks. You can combine zippers, removeable topcovers/bugnets, peak bags, ridgeline organizers, tie-outs, etc., in any way you want, but it doesn't necessarily make it an original design, just a different combination of the same old stuff. If you come up with something truly original (like the WBBB gear shelf), you might want to patent it.

[Tacblades]

Well its a tricky balance, don't forget vendors also copy and sell copies clones or equipment inspired by the DIY community so its a two way street.

I think you go to a vendor for consistency, professional product in terms of backup, repairs and warranty. Usually vendors are cheaper as they have profit margin, but are buying raw material in bulk at a discount. Like a cuben tarp, an individualy would never be able to make one cheaper than a vendor.

Product are very rarely unique, they are usually a modification or inspired by a previous design weather its from a vendor or diy.

You cant stop commerical clones that is a fact.
Patents are worthless. As each country has a different patent law and to cover the globe you have to take out separate patents in each country which is beyond the reach of most companies.
Also to just challange a patent costs 10s of thousands if not 100s of thousands so they may not be enforceable anyway.

I like clones and copies as it forces the companies to stay on their toes, constantly innovate, push new designs through continously evolve their products. When i produced goods i actively encouraged people to compete and copy my stuff as it forced me to stay one step ahead at all times which makes a very healthy business. Why buy a copy or clone that is already obsolete.

Look at the loop alien model. The original is still there, but there are 1000s of clones being sold.
I bought the originals as i like to support the business first but mainly as i knew there were a superior product.
If the clones were better than the original with some exotic material or something which were lighter stronger cheaper i would buy them and expect the original company to innovate the product.

A business that for sucess means that its entirely dependant on its customers being ethical would not survive too long it has to be the best in class and constantly be the best to be a healthly business.

I see too many failed business because they think passion and hard work is enough to make a business sucessful, this is wrong most of the time, from my experience you need some passion but business knowledge is much more valuable and likely lead to sucess.

[rais'n hammock]

The title of the thread asks about ethics of a the DIY'er. I would also add to that the ethics of a "vendor" and combine the thought to be the ethics of thw members of the forum. I am an engineer and deal with ethics everyday. I have had courses and continued training specifically focused on ethics. Ethics is not just a question of law but also of a society's social expectation. The hammock forum is a sub-community of our larger society. This forum will set it's own expectations and limits. Members will call out those who go beyond what is acceptable.
When I post a comment in the DIY section I do so with the expectation that I am contributing to the community to help and benefit an individual who may want to do their own personal project. Where I have a problem is with someone who takes contributions from the community and claims them for their own and in turn decides to profit from those ideas. Patents are to keep honest people honest. Patents should also be pursued with honesty and give credit where credit is due. It has already been said that patents are difficult and costly for most to obtain and enforce. Not all will go after patents. It is a strategic decision sometimes and often one that is made with the attitude of "It was my idea and I can do it better, faster, or with a reputation that no one else can, so customers will always choose me". Many vendors here seem to have that approach. It works for them. Many vendors on here have built their products from the input of members of this community. Some vendors have also grown from this community by simply being willing to take the risk where others would not to provide a service that many cannot or just don't want to. I have made almost all of my gear because I enjoy the creation process. IF I make something that a vendor on here makes it is for my personal use and not sold for profit. I have even experimented with improvements to items that are sold by a vendor and shared those improvements with the vendor.
Bottom line for me is this. Members of our community come here to share ideas and learn from one another. As ideas are shared we all learn and grow. We contribute at a level that we feel comfortable whether we are an individual or a vendor. We should always respect the contributions of the members and give credit where credit is due. This includes asking permission if we expect to profit from someone elses ideas. It is very rare that an idea comes from a single individual or is an original idea. We need to recognize and respect that. We all contribute ideas freely. Some have left the forum when they have felt that others were not ethical. I personally have stopped contributing to an idea when I felt the ideas would be used outside the bounds of what I felt was ethical. These are all choices we can make. Members of this forum include both vendors and DIY'ers. Members make this forum and contribute at their own comfort level. We accept the terms and conditions as well as the intent of this forum to share ideas. This forum is not an advertising website. Vendors have their own website dedicated to that purpose. This site is dedicated to all members for the purpose of "freely" sharing ideas of the individuals who come here.

[Otter1]

Not much to add...except that it's great that so many here are concerned with ethics. And as to your question about asking a vendor how they do "x" when you plan to diy it - I've wondered about that myself - since I wouldn't profit from their design in any way. In the end I have decided that until someone changes my mind on that one, it's best to ask the diy community how they would do it, or go by trial and error. I guess it's ok to ask them and they can say yes or no - nobody is harmed that way.

Ya know, err on the side of caution, etc.

[KBr00ks]

Eidson, you read my mind. I've been pondering the same questions, regarding the very same product (the Wooki).

It's a revolutionary product and Warbonnet deserves a lot of credit -- and sales. I considered making a purchase, but I have more time than money right now, and would like to make a version that is tailored to my needs (non-WB hammock, smaller and lighter). But I've felt slightly guilty while closely studying photos and videos and even asking questions about the Wooki to figure out a possible plan.

But this is a great point by Dutch:

This reminds me of a discussion I had with Pan from JRB maybe 7 years ago. He was upset that someone cloned and posted directions for the wearable quilt on HF. However he discovered later that not very many people can make a quilt. That person went around and showed it off to everyone. People would get envy and realize they couldn't make it but they could buy one from JRB.

There's no way I'd make one for someone else for sale, or even to give away, due to the number of hours it will likely take given my amateur skill level and basic tools. In fact, I suspect that at some point during the project, I'd gladly shove many $100 bills at Warbonnet to take the pile of fabric and drifting feathers off my hands and make something useable. In the end, sheer pain-in-the-rear factor keeps potential DIYers from making a dent in cottage vendors' sales. Not to mention -- in looking at down prices, I've realized a DIY version would not be so much less expensive; in fact, it's amazing the Wooki, and other fine quality quilts, don't cost more than they do. A testament to the efficiencies of even small-scale production. So hopefully if I ever do make one, it will prompt others to simply buy a Wooki.

[KBr00ks]

And as to your question about asking a vendor how they do "x" when you plan to diy it - I've wondered about that myself - since I wouldn't profit from their design in any way. In the end I have decided that until someone changes my mind on that one, it's best to ask the diy community how they would do it, or go by trial and error. I guess it's ok to ask them and they can say yes or no - nobody is harmed that way.

Ya know, err on the side of caution, etc.

Another good point -- vendors do have to be cautious, after all, to not give away trade secrets. As we've seen fishy accounts pop up trying to sell crappy products, no doubt shady people looking to make a quick buck scan this site for easily steal-able ideas.