The Ethics of a DIY'er?

[Eidson]

Thanks to everyone for all their responses on this thread. Lots of great thoughts.

[Billy Goat]

I've made quite a few pieces of hardware inspired by Dutch bling, and even from titanium that I had lying around. Similar in shape, design and function, but by no means exactly the same. I would never sell them, and I don't think I would give them away, either. I am a machinist and I have the equipment available to me to make the stuff, and I like doing it. There is entirely too much labor involved in most of the gear that I've made to even try to make enough of it to turn a profit. I do it for the pleasure of knowing that I'm hanging on gear that I have made myself. It's a point of pride for me.

Cheers,
the Goat

[airbud]

This happens so much in so many other industries, but Dutch said best, not everybody has the patience or the skills to build things themselves. It really comes down to how much time you want to invest in the project. For me, cars have so little importance to me that I really don't want to spend the time researching how to do a repair that a skilled mechanic WITH all the correct tools could complete in less than one third of the time. But more importantly in the DIY community, skill share is the way the community will progress and should not be inhibited for the sake of not hurting someone's feelings.

[ironfish77]

Great discussion. I have had similar discussions with myself.

I found it interesting, at least one vendor amended his design, when a pattern for a clone was posted, a DIYer made an improvement. The improvement showed up in the amended design by the original designer. No credit was given to the inoator.

Just recently I was thinking about Grizz or Professor Hammock and how I might feel if I had developed a project like the DIY Bridge Hammock. Now the plans are being sold and supplies, credit is pointed at a person who simplified the developments Grizz made to the DIY Bridge.

I am really uncomfortable when I feel like I am stealing someone's intellectual property. I DIY because I like learning and challenges, I do not like feeling sleazy about taking others work.

For some people sharing their projects and technical iinformation gives them satisfaction. I happily use their information.

[Carbon]

As noted above, vendors can also get ideas from DIY'ers.

When I was heavily into amateur astronomy a vendor contacted me and we exchanged ideas on a particular piece of equipment. After a couple of revisions he sent the plans to China for production.

[Dynamystic]

This is an interesting topic and especially relevant to me at the moment.

I've been perfecting a unique tarp design over the past few years which has now evolved to a unique fully enclosed hammock tarp/tent that also functions quite well as a 2 person ground tent. I made a post on the forums a couple of years ago in excitement over my first successful prototype of the original tarp design. Soon after a friend of mine who previously worked for big agnes saw my design and basically slapped me in the face for showing pictures online. He proceeded to tell me one story after another about stolen ideas and true innovator's dreams being robbed. I quickly removed the images and have been operating in the shadows waiting until I have a market ready product to try and protect and then see what happens.

My product happens to be an amalgamation of almost 4 years of hammock forums diy prowling with too many notable sources of ideas and how-to's to even keep track of. So, the question of ethics regarding my use of others ideas is relevant here. However, we are in a day and age where true originality is few and few between. Most originals nowadays are usually modifications or amalgamations of other people's ideas, rearranged to make something new. As long as you bring something new, is that enough to keep you safe as an innovative diy'er who may have dreams of bringing his/her vision to market?

More importantly to me in this conversation, however, is it safe for an innovative diy'er to share their ideas here if they are truly innovative enough that someone with more resources might want to copy them for themselves? Let's be honest, most of what us diyers are able to produce is not that hard to reverse engineer, even from a picture. It's designing and bringing to life the innovations themselves that's the hardest part, and yet the easiest to rip off.

Am I safe to share? I certainly would love to and get all you fine folks feedback. I'm just afraid that if I do, I may become another one of those stories of folks with great, income worthy, ideas who get left in the dust as established entities with all the resources take the idea and run.

Thank you for being such a great community and invaluable resource of information for the creative diy junkies. I'm curious to hear how people's thoughts progress on this topic.

[SilvrSurfr]

I've been perfecting a unique tarp design over the past few years which has now evolved to a unique fully enclosed hammock tarp/tent that also functions quite well as a 2 person ground tent.

I don't think you have to worry at all about your design being ripped off. Based on your description (and looking at the original thread where you introduced it), such a design would occupy a very small niche, and if you were to market it, would not generate enough sales for anyone to even consider stealing it. Designs that straddle the worlds of hammocking and tenting just aren't that popular - I can't even think of one right now.

It's kind of like hammocks with integrated insulation; a few people think it's pure genius, but the market doesn't. They're just not very popular, and probably never will be.

Then again, I could be wrong. I never thought the Loop Alien would be popular, but it was popular enough for somebody to start cloning it.

[Theosus]

Well its a tricky balance, don't forget vendors also copy and sell copies clones or equipment inspired by the DIY community so its a two way street.

Exactly! My wife is in several crafting groups. It's well known if anything becomes popular on crafting sites, within a few months the same stuff can be found at hobby lobby and other craft-type retailers. So the big companies do the same thing.
She has one of those vinyl cutting machines and a heat press, she makes shirts and stuff. I've said for the past year, the best part about the thing is all the copyright violations she can do. If I see a neat shirt online with a single color and simple design, she can usually copy it in a few hours. But she wouldn't sell them, because that's just wrong.

[Dynamystic]

Designs that straddle the worlds of hammocking and tenting just aren't that popular - I can't even think of one right now.

This is true. I have not found a single product that straddles the world of hammocking and tenting that suited my desires. So, I made my own. Just because the market isnt a big fan of the designs that are out there, doesnt mean that there isnt a market for the genre should it be well executed. But this thread isn't about me. A forum like this is a great place to find out what the market would be interested in, yet also a place where a popular idea might get poached.

Its true, if I didnt think that there might actually be a market for my idea I wouldn't have to worry about protecting it. I'd just make it for myself and share away helping everyone who wants to make their own. Then usher in the inevitable question, "when will these be for sale?" Sorry silvrsurfr I'm not convinced to share yet... :-)

[MattK]

Quote Originally Posted by SilvrSurfr View Post
Designs that straddle the worlds of hammocking and tenting just aren't that popular - I can't even think of one right now.

What about the Kammok Sunda on Kickstarter right now?

On the general topic, this is really interesting. Especially given that I have begun selling some of the gear I make. I admit 100% that most of what I make as DIYer is just me duplicating what someone else has already made. For the most part, right now, I sell the bikepacking bags I make. I don't have any hesitation selling those, however. I initially watched a video on line for how to put them together. Then, I designed my own straps, my own zipper installation, zipper garages, internal pockets, dividers, etc. Plus, each bikepacking bag I make is 100% custom. Materials, colors, closures, pockets, etc are all determined by the buyer, not to mention the geometry is unique for each bike and what the buyer wants to carry. I feel confident that there is no ethical issue there. I work hard to make sure the bags are unique. That said, there is a reason that bikepacking bags are all pretty similar: somethings just work. Any "unique" idea I have had, I later find out someone else has done something similar. And usually better.

Then there is the issue of tarps and quilts and hammocks. These pieces all started by me pulling dimensions/directions from vendors. For instance, my tarps and quilts started from the instructions on DIY Gear Supply's site. The way I size my quilts was initially based off of Enlightened Equipments sizing. At this point though, the tarps I am contemplating selling are different: different RL seam construction, different tie-out reinforcing/hardware, different dimensions, different cat cuts, different pullout locations. Most of these changes come from experience and seeing what other vendors and DIYers do, and combining it all into one tarp. Is this different/unique enough to mean I am selling my own tarp, and not a knock off? And how different can a hex tarp really be?Similarly for my quilts. The baseline was a copy of other products. But then I tweaked the neck cinch, the foot cinch, the zipper length, the pad attachment, the final dimmensions, etc. Even my wearable Serape Under Quilt (with a head hole) is the JRB idea, combined with MLDs M-quilt construction, tweaked for features and dimensions.

This certainly makes me think, and I will have to give some serious consideration before jumping in and selling more than just my custom bike bags.