Great Hammock night failure of the ursack

[Immortalviking]

I think what we need to do is, ask the Bear how he felt about his Ursack experience. Did he taste Peanut Butter ? Did he taste any MSG ? Did his blood pressure increase because he got a fang full of sodium ? Did he have an allergic reaction to the peanut butter ? Did he die because of said reaction ? Is Ursack responsible because for the death ? What kind of emotional trauma did the bear go through trying to get the food ? Did he break a tooth ?

People; i think we've just touched the tip of the iceberg.

[mises60115]

Thanks to everybody for the great discussion. I'm an Ursack Major XL owner considering purchasing a bear canister for this season. Bottom line: even though my “tied-on-a-tree” Ursack experience over the course of 5 nights has been "successful", I'm leaning toward the bear canister purchase. My (costly) Ursack would be relegated to overflow duty for things I don’t mind getting roughed up or destroyed (garbage, cooking wipe up handkerchiefs, etc).

I’m providing some background of my experience and some “shockers” below:


Background:

Being a newbie last year, I bought my Ursack mainly on influence of Andrew Skurka's and Phil Werner's (sectionhiker.com) blogs. Their recommendation of the convenience factor was a big draw. At the time:

• I was in a hurry.
• Was turned off by thought of lugging bear canister.
• Did not consider that even if the sack survived an attack my food would be crushed.
• Did not bother Googling "ursack failure".

Last season I tied my Ursack (lined with an OPSack) directly to a tree for 5 nights in the locations below. For all nights my Ursack was "successful" in that it was NOT tested/bothered by a bear (that I could tell). I attribute this to fact I was out in locations during the time period when bears were thinking about, or actually in, hibernation:

• 2 nights - Mid September 2017 - ~ 50 yards from Kinsman Pond Tentsite - New Hampshire AT (no bear pole, no good PCT hang trees)
• 1 night - Early December 2017 - ~ 50 yards Pogo Campsite - Maryland AT (no bear pole & too lazy to seek out a good PCT hang tree)
• 2 nights - Mid January 2018 - ~50 yards from Big Mountain Shelter - Pennsylvania Tuscarora Trail (TT) (no bear pole & forgot to pack my PCT hang rope)
• Additionally I used my Ursack in a PCT hang for 1 night (October—Green Ridge State Forest), and on a bear pole for 3 nights (November, February) - Shockeys Knob Shelter, WV TT.

“Shockers”:

Now that I'm "older and wiser" and looking at a canister purchase, I'm Googling the web for "failures" of both canisters and Ursacks.

There are 2 Ursack items I found on the web, that I'd like to share with this thread:

1. Here are some more nice photos and story of an Ursack failure:
https://giantdumpster.wordpress.com/tag/ursack-failure/


2. Ursack President Thomas Cohen also has his own law firm and has represented Ursack (i.e. himself) in court actions to push his product.

http://thomascohen.com/us/ (Ursack is listed as an “other endeavor”)

This is dated news, but in 2011 Ursack unsuccessfully filed an action in the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit in an effort to get acceptance of their product. The case info:
URSACK, INCORPORATED V. Sierra Interagency Black Bear Group, US National Park Service, United States Forest Service, Yosemite National Park, and Sequoia and Kings Canyon National Parks, and Inyo National Forest
Case # 09-17152
San Francisco District Court
05/09/2011
https://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/
(Go to Opinions page to get the 26 page PDF opinion by the court)

In my opinion, if court action is need, this indicates that agencies are not comfortable with the Ursack performance on it’s own merits. (Of course, to be fair, there might also be legal actions by canister manufacturers too.) Here are some key quotes from the PDF:

Between 2001 and 2007, [Ursack] urged SIBBG to recommend the Ursack for inclusion
on the agencies’ lists of approved containers. Mostly it was
unsuccessful, but in 2007, SIBBG recommended that the
agencies grant conditional approval to the Ursack for the 2007
summer season. SIBBG recommended that the agencies with-
draw approval if they determined that the container failed
three or more times during the season. The agencies accepted
this recommendation and granted conditional approval. At the
end of the 2007 season, however, SIBBG determined that the
Ursack had failed more than three times, and it recommended
that the agencies withdraw conditional approval. The National
Park Service accepted this recommendation.

Ursack and three individual users of the Ursack brought
this action pursuant to the Administrative Procedure Act
(“APA”) against SIBBG, the Park Service, the Forest Service,
and the superintendents of the relevant national parks and for-
ests, alleging that the decision to withdraw conditional
approval of the Ursack was arbitrary and capricious and oth-
erwise not in accordance with law. After reviewing the
administrative record, the district court granted summary
judgment to the agencies. Ursack and the three individuals
appeal. We [the court of appeals] affirm [the district court's previous decision]

i.e. the appeals court ruled against Ursack in 2011. As of 2017, it appears Ursack is still pushing the agencies with “improved” product:
https://www.ursack.com/updates/

[Wkerber]

I'm not in brown bear country, but I don't even comprehend the value of these bags against bear. You can hang it PCT style to keep it out of the bear's reach, but you can do that with a silnylon bag. If it's hung within a bears reach, everything has to be within a loksak and you have to hope that your hands didn't get any food smell on the outside, so that they don't have any scent to lead them to the bag. If they find it, at best it's a stew of what ever is inside. It seems like a bear canister or a PCT hung food bag is the only real protection.
It might be effective against rodents, but so is hanging you bag PCT style.

[Trecker8]

Really crappy customer service. Can't believe Thomas Cohen was debating you instead of giving you a replacement.

[HandyRandy]

The point of this particular tear-resistant bag is to resist tears, which is useful for providing a barrier between a bear’s belly and your food, scented items, etc. It also prevents an animal from running away with your food if tied properly because the rope used and it’s connection to the rope is strong. A plastic or nylon bag or bear canister does not offer that protection.

I don’t think the PCT hang and bear cans are bulletproof either, but I wouldn’t bash the idea or the person using or selling them.

Instead of focusing on just one part of the experience, try to be better at managing your food before and after you put it away for the night. Some great ideas to further protect your food:

-Don’t cook where you camp or store your food.
-Don’t camp or store your food in places where most other people do.
-Stick a noisemaker on or in your food bag so you can hear when it is being messed with as soon as it happens.
-Don’t get food on anything outside the odor barrier.
-Wash your hands, face and teeth after eating.
-Don’t put food that will be instantly ruined if crushed in a crushable container in a big hungry animal’s stomping grounds.
-Don’t underestimate clever creatures.

[OlTrailDog]

I suppose this means that my Kelty White Cloud spectra pack won't suffice for food storage.