Widening my temp range

[iamuke]

Apologies if this has been answered already elsewhere, or if it's in the wrong area.

On my last trip, I was expecting lows in the 40s. What I got was a low of 25F, which was approaching the limits of my 20F quilts and clothing. I wasn't cold, but didn't have much room left in my insulation.

Two lessons learned: I need to get better at forecasting, and camping in the lowest part of a valley tends to test your insulation.

I am not quite ready to fork out $$$ for winter quilts, so I'm looking for alternatives to extend my temp range should I find myself in a similar situation (or colder) in the future. Being a lightweight wannabe, I don't want to carry stuff that I won't use if I can avoid it (including thick insulation clothing layers). Multi-use is preferred. So my questions for all you awesome hangers:

1) I am open to stacking summer-weight quilts over/under my 20F quilts (though that's a lot of bulk and weight that I may not even use). That way I would have summer and shoulder season quilts, which would probably get more usage by themselves than a dedicated set of winter quilts. I see that many of you frozen-butt types seem to have multiple quilts and/or sleeping bags when camping in the cold. Enlightened Equipment has a blog post where they advocate stacking top quilts. It seems like it would work pretty well, but of course there are gotchas. What are they? How do you stack underquilts?

2) I just bought the sock from WB, thinking that if it adds 10F to my insulation, I could pretty much weather the exact situation I had on the last trip with room to spare, insulation-wise. When I went to bed it was 39F, and if I had a sock I would have deployed it, theoretically giving me an in-hammock low of 35F instead of 25F. My 20f quilts would have been toasty. This is a light and compact option, and I don't think it would bother me too much to just bring the sock as backup when the temps might get lower than expected.

3) What about space blankets? My HH SS employs a mylar space blanket over the CCF and it seems pretty warm. In a low-temp crisis, would breaking out the space blankets help overcome the marginality of my gear? You all seem to be really smart about vapor barriers and condensation, what would I have to do to prevent moisture issues when using space blankets under/over/in between?

4) I have heard that a CCF pad between the UQ and my backside can dramatically boost the temp range. Anyone have experience with this? That's great, but what about the TQ?

Thanks in advance!

[JSH]

You and I have similar equipment. I have the same objectives of optimizing my gear for more moderate temps upper 20's to upper 60's. Three weeks ago we had a cold weekend with temps forecast into the single digits. This doesn't happen much in my area so I planned a hang in the backyard combining my down gear in ways I hadn't tried before. Low that night turned out to be 5 degrees. I slept comfortably. Here's what I learned.

Underquilt
1. I converted a 40 degree JRB top quilt to an underquilt. This was suspended directly beneath my hammock. Outside of this I hung my 20 degree Hammock gear underquilt. I loosened the suspension a bit to avoid compressing the JRB. Outside of this I used my 2QZQ underquilt protector because of the wind that night.

Topquilt
2. I tied the end of a Costco down blanket bunching it up into a rough top quilt and inserted this into my 20 degree JRB top quilt. I inserted a 18 inch wide piece of 1/4" CCA in my footbox. I find this flattens the WBBB box a bit and is comfortable. But this night I wanted the extra protection for my feet.

Clothing
3. I used Costco ChilGard base layer top and bottom with normal pants. In addition, I used a 200 fleece topping that with a JRB down hoodie. I used one pair of wood socks.

Tarp
4. I hung my Superfly fairly low to block the wind which gusted throughout the night.

I have to admit to sleeping warm. I really thought a low in the single digits might be tough. I'm a cold sleeper but adding all of that down stuff together worked. I got advice from several folks about putting this together and it worked.

My normal pack load would increase about 1 lb for this extra protection from my typical low of the mid20's to the single digit I experienced. My only problem was condensation. My winter cover on the WBBB had frosted up pretty thoroughly by the morning but the frost didn't impact my top quilt.

Hope this helps. Good luck.

[Otter1]

You say you don't want thick insulating clothing / you want multi-use.

That said, my UL and ExLite down items from Montbell boost my quilt's rating and keep me warm in camp. Are you sure that wouldn't work for you? Probably lighter than doubling up on quilts, too.

[Phantom Grappler]

When stacking underquilts--put the lowest temperature rated quilt on the outside, furthest from hammock; because you do not want to risk compressing the one with the most down. If the thinner quilt gets compressed a little, you won't lose as much insulation as if the thicker quilt is compressed. And a closed cell foam pad , in between layers of double layer hammock, will boost your insulation at low cost and low weight. My pad is Gossamer Gear 40x72x3/16--bulky--ain't gonna slide off that. If not a double layer hammock, put pad in hammock. Plus what Funny Money says! Good luck iamuke!

[SilvrSurfr]

I personally think that space blankets, pads, and other vapor barriers work for a very small minority of hammockers. Once you get below 30* F, condensation will be too much of a problem for the vast majority of people (here comes Duct Tape, pad aficionado, to dispute my conclusion!). Maybe you're one of the lucky ones that either don't get condensation (but you're human, so that doesn't seem within the realm of possibility), or simply don't mind the condensation.

I have three kids and they all inherited the condensation gene from me. One night it got to 22* F and I went to check on my son - he had actual pools - puddles! - of condensation on his ccf pad. That was the last night I used a pad.

Socks also present condensation problems - you have to vent the heck out of them to keep from getting soaked in your own juices. Space blankets? Prepare to be drenched in condensation.

My personal philosophy is to pack the insulation you need - that's why I have 40*, 20* and 0* quilts. I only bring what I need (with a 10 degree cushion). So if the low temps are gonna be 30* F, I'll pack the 20* quilts. If the temps will be 10* F, I'll pack the 0* quilts. If the temps are gonna be 0* F? I'll stack my 0* quilts with my 40* quilts. So far I've only been down to -3* F, but this approach has worked fine for me.

As you experiment with temperatures, you'll learn some things. I know my HG 20* Phoenix is really only good to about 25* F - I'm not comfortable with it at lower temps (lowest I ever went was 13* F, and that wasn't fun). That's why I use a 10* cushion, so I don't encounter those problems again.

One thing you'll learn, if you're camping anywhere worth camping: there are not a lot of weather stations in the wilderness. So Weather Channel will tell you what the lows are, but you could be camping in a place with no weather stations and precious little asphalt to reflect and radiate heat all night long. One of my favorite places to camp, the NJ Pine Barrens, simply has no weather stations to help me plan my trip. I've seen a 21* difference between what the nearest weather stations predicted for the low, and what I actually encountered. Imagine showing up at a place expecting a low of 18* F and instead you get -3* F? That's actually happened to me.

[DuctTape]

My dispute with Ss conclusion is that the temps he uses to are too warm for ccf. Vapor barriers require one to be cognizant of being too warm and generating sweat. Most condensation issues in my experience are a result of this. I use ccf pads when it gets really cold, like subzero cold. The 20s is not cold enough, ccf is too effective as insulation and a vapor barrier. If one uses it at those temps, one must also be sure to not be too warm and overheat. I disagree with Ss that ccf only works for a small percentage of people. Like all gear, one must use it appropriately. If there are issues, then it is not being used correctly. For those who perspire non-stop condensation is still happening, it is just not so obvious because it is being absorbed by the down or synthetic insulation.

[iamuke]

You and I have similar equipment. I have the same objectives of optimizing my gear for more moderate temps upper 20's to upper 60's...

Comprehensive post. Helpful. Thanks!

When stacking underquilts--put the lowest temperature rated quilt on the outside, furthest from hammock; because you do not want to risk compressing the one with the most down. If the thinner quilt gets compressed a little, you won't lose as much insulation as if the thicker quilt is compressed. And a closed cell foam pad , in between layers of double layer hammock, will boost your insulation at low cost and low weight. My pad is Gossamer Gear 40x72x3/16--bulky--ain't gonna slide off that. If not a double layer hammock, put pad in hammock. Plus what Funny Money says! Good luck iamuke!

Thanks. Makes sense. Any opinion on the second quilt being a full size versus a 3/4? Seems to me the extra insulation around the legs would be good in a marginal situation. Tradeoff, added bulk and weight.

Also, I read somewhere that if you do stack quilts, you should put a synthetic quilt on the outside. Something to do with allowing moisture to pass through the down and not hitting air at dew point until it's in the synthetic layer. The idea is that if you're going to get condensation, better it happens in the synthetic stuff, which is easier to dry/manage than the down. Thoughts?

I'm this close to getting the GG pad. I'm trying to figure out how I can use it-- I need a bit more insulation for my legs, and I want a big lump o' Evazote to plump up my underquilt. But the wannabe lightweight hiker guy in me is rebelling. I'd probably cut the thing into two parts, use the smaller one for feet.

You say you don't want thick insulating clothing / you want multi-use.

That said, my UL and ExLite down items from Montbell boost my quilt's rating and keep me warm in camp. Are you sure that wouldn't work for you? Probably lighter than doubling up on quilts, too.

It might. I have a Ghost Whisperer which I would probably have with me normally (last trip I gave to my friend because she was shaking before she got into her hammock and I was afraid she'd popsicle on me overnight). It might be that I have enough clothing (medium/heavy base layer, fleece mid layer, puffy, wind shirt) to boost my insulation sufficiently. If it gets cold again out here in AZ this winter I should do a backyard hang and layer up with all my clothes. Thanks!

I personally think that space blankets, pads, and other vapor barriers work for a very small minority of hammockers. Once you get below 30* F, condensation will be too much of a problem for the vast majority of people (here comes Duct Tape, pad aficionado, to dispute my conclusion!). Maybe you're one of the lucky ones that either don't get condensation (but you're human, so that doesn't seem within the realm of possibility), or simply don't mind the condensation.

I have three kids and they all inherited the condensation gene from me. One night it got to 22* F and I went to check on my son - he had actual pools - puddles! - of condensation on his ccf pad. That was the last night I used a pad.

Socks also present condensation problems - you have to vent the heck out of them to keep from getting soaked in your own juices. Space blankets? Prepare to be drenched in condensation.

My personal philosophy is to pack the insulation you need - that's why I have 40*, 20* and 0* quilts. I only bring what I need (with a 10 degree cushion). So if the low temps are gonna be 30* F, I'll pack the 20* quilts. If the temps will be 10* F, I'll pack the 0* quilts. If the temps are gonna be 0* F? I'll stack my 0* quilts with my 40* quilts. So far I've only been down to -3* F, but this approach has worked fine for me.

As you experiment with temperatures, you'll learn some things. I know my HG 20* Phoenix is really only good to about 25* F - I'm not comfortable with it at lower temps (lowest I ever went was 13* F, and that wasn't fun). That's why I use a 10* cushion, so I don't encounter those problems again.

One thing you'll learn, if you're camping anywhere worth camping: there are not a lot of weather stations in the wilderness. So Weather Channel will tell you what the lows are, but you could be camping in a place with no weather stations and precious little asphalt to reflect and radiate heat all night long. One of my favorite places to camp, the NJ Pine Barrens, simply has no weather stations to help me plan my trip. I've seen a 21* difference between what the nearest weather stations predicted for the low, and what I actually encountered. Imagine showing up at a place expecting a low of 18* F and instead you get -3* F? That's actually happened to me.

I don't seem to be too much of a condensation guy so far (but I'm new at this/my mileage may yet vary). Before I used VBL and space blankets I'd definitely test it out in the backyard. Ditto for the sock.

I'm with you on the multiple quilts. I'm really pleased with my Warbonnet gear, and the 20F quilts seem comfy from around 55F down to 25F so far in my testing. When it warms up that will be too hot for AZ, so I'm contemplating a 40F set of quilts. Good for warmer times, stackable for when the temp will drop below 25F. Then I think I want the 0F quilts for when I go winter camping in the mountains. Hmm. Warmth, or bankruptcy? Perfect world, right? Thanks for your reply!

My dispute with Ss conclusion is that the temps he uses to are too warm for ccf. Vapor barriers require one to be cognizant of being too warm and generating sweat. Most condensation issues in my experience are a result of this. I use ccf pads when it gets really cold, like subzero cold. The 20s is not cold enough, ccf is too effective as insulation and a vapor barrier. If one uses it at those temps, one must also be sure to not be too warm and overheat. I disagree with Ss that ccf only works for a small percentage of people. Like all gear, one must use it appropriately. If there are issues, then it is not being used correctly. For those who perspire non-stop condensation is still happening, it is just not so obvious because it is being absorbed by the down or synthetic insulation.

I think I need to get out there and just experiment in the backyard and find what works for me.

[DuctTape]

I think I need to get out there and just experiment in the backyard and find what works for me.

Excactly! I spent an entire winter testing different combinations of gear in different conditions. That winter with temps from 20*F to -20*F showed me that is isn't item x, but how item x works (or doesn't) with items y and z in conditions w. Too often, one will make an assumption about a piece of gear, but in reality it is how that gear functions with the other pieces in the entire system in different conditions. Best part of testing is sleeping in the hammock!

[DrPhun]

If you are just worried about it being just a little too cold, there are other things you can do besides bringing extra gear and after you have put to extra clothing. A lot of people talk about using a nalgene bottle in a sock as a hot water bottle. I always bring a few of those disposable hand warmers. One of those lasts all night and gives off a surprising amount of heat. I put it right under my waistband near my core. I also bring two sit pads, one of closed cell foam and one self inflating. I used the closed cell foam one in my footbox (because I have a 3/4 length quilt) and I use the other one as a pillow (helps keep the side fabric of the hammock out of my face.) If my butt starts getting cold (typically the first spot), I slide one of those under my butt. It is a good idea to do something as soon as you start getting cold rather than wait, because it is much easier to stay warm than it is to warm back up once you get chilled.

[BackpackerGuy]

Two suggestions come to mind:
1. Use a Top Cover & Under quilt Protector. This will add probably close to 10 degrees of warmth inside your hammock.
2. Get a silk-cotton sleeping bag liner. Using this inside of your top quilt will add 5- 10 degrees of warmth also. Very lightweight options for a lot of extra warmth.