Did you read the post I quoted?Originally Posted by TeeDee
Did you read the post I quoted?
Here are mine.
Ahhhh- excuse me fulminated - I mis-read what you posted and your reply to MacIntyre was correct. So just ignore my bumbling.
Last edited by TeeDee; 11-16-2009 at 18:01.
Those who sacrifice freedom for safety, have neither.
Do not dig your grave with your teeth. (Unknown)
I'm going to walk away from this thread after I make this post because I really don't understand what is going on. You're giving me lessons on hitches without acknowledging Mac's original post that has now been edited.
To which I answered...Aren't you supposed to make the hitch so that it holds WITHOUT the toggle... then insert the toggle to assist in opening the knot after bearing a load?
Otherwise, you have nothing but a toggle in an eye, which is not a MSH.
- MacEntyre
Which would seem to me to say (paraphrasing here) "without the toggle (marlin spike), it's not a Marlin Spike Hitch and it will not hold a load because the hitch will just come undone".without the "toggle" in the marlin spike hitch, the knot just comes undone and won't hold anything. Maybe I'm reading you guys wrong...
...so, now does anyone still believe that the true MSH, which is what we are talking about, puts no load on the toggle?
I do not see how it is possible for the toggle to have no load.
- MacEntyre
"We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately." - Ben Franklin
www.MollyMacGear.com
I for one haven't ever said it has no load. My understanding is that the load on the webbing spreads out over the toggle, diffusing it. As is always the case when you spread load, the intensity at any given spot is diminished.
I can make a MSH in a bit of cord, even cord doubled over, and know that the toggle ought to be sturdy. Same force as is on the webbing, only less diffused.
Grizz
In the picture above the sling puts a lot of pressure on the knot and webbing above the toggle. The knot itself gets compressed. The toggle takes some pressure but I believe that the tension is mainly in the webbing above the toggle. I have even had a sling slip slightly behind the knot while trying to follow the main line. I think that as long as you ensure the sling line is laying on the main line, and not suspended by the two ends of the toggle you will be fine with the lightweight toggles.
I have tried carbon arrow cutoff and fiberglass tent pole pieces (above). Both have been successful.
Have you ever used the Marlin Spike Hitch in suspending your hammock??
I have used sticks picked up from the ground, approximately 1/8" is diameter, which I can easily break between my fingers to get the length I like to use and have the hammock suspended comfortably for 8 to 10 hours. That is both static and dynamic loads.
Do you fully believe that a 1/8" diameter stick, picked up from the ground, that can be easily broken by finger pressure alone, can support approximately 180 lbs of occupant, clothes and hammock without breaking or bending?
What I do not understand is what you refer to as "True MSH" ????
There is only one Marlin Spike Hitch, (I believe that is what you mean by MSH) of which I know, it is ABOK #2030., Fulminated has a link to a video of the hitch.
I'm going to have to carefully read the full thread, I must be missing something that has you so dis-believing of practical experience of many people.
Those who sacrifice freedom for safety, have neither.
Do not dig your grave with your teeth. (Unknown)
No. I have used it to lift heavy things with a crane, though.
No, I don't.
Not sure why you are asking... your point appears to be that it can't be holding anything like the entire load, with which I agree!
I thought I saw some pics that showed something other than a MSH being used with Whoopie slings. I can't find them now. Sorry!
Of course. There are other knots that work well with Whoopie slings and toggles, though.
What I use is a double sheet bend, with a toggle. That is a knot that can be tied anywhere on the webbing, like a MSH. However, it can survive having the toggle removed, and it can be tied without a toggle. The only purpose of the toggle is to make it easy to untie. With the MSH, the knot falls apart when the toggle is removed.
Now I am in real trouble here!
- MacEntyre
- MacEntyre
"We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately." - Ben Franklin
www.MollyMacGear.com
I stand by what I wrote in this post.
I personally do not believe that Gnome implemented the MSH correctly and was hanging from the toggle and not the webbing as recommended.
If done correctly, the suspension is hanging from the webbing and NOT the toggle (as I fully believe that Gnome did - this is no reflection on Gnome - as any customer tech support person can attest, the first question asked is ALWAYS is the computer/toaster/vacuum/radio/etc plugged in - that clears up a large majority of first time user problems - nothing to do with intelligence or lack thereof).
Now as to whether there is no load on the toggle. I haven't tracked down what I originally wrote but it was probably something along the lines that there is no load on the toggle only compression forces. This assumes that the method is implemented correctly. When done correctly I should probably be more precise, there is a bending or shearing force on the toggle and a compression force. The bending or shearing force is applied between the central strand of the hitch and the encompassing outside strand. The moment of this force is exceedingly small due to the small distance involved. To illustrate this, take a small diameter stick in your fingers. Hold the stick between the forefingers and thumbs of each hand, with your forefingers approximately 1/4" apart and your thumbnails touching. Using pressure applied by your forefingers and thumbs alone try to bend or break the stick. Unless you are many magnitudes stronger than even the Governor of CA, you cannot break the stick. Now re-arrange your hands so that you are applying pressure on the ends of the stick, say 12" apart with your thumb nails still touching, you will find it very easy to bend or break the stick. You have increased the moment of the forces (the principle of the lever in action) to increase the force bending the stick.
Now if the Marlin Spike Hitch is incorrectly applied with the suspension force applied directly on the toggle instead of the webbing, then you will easily bend or break toggles, especially those of ductile material such as AL or of brittle material. This is the same as when you changed your hold on the stick and increased the distance between the bending forces applied.
In addition to the above described bending/shear force there is a compression force applied on the toggle by the wraps of the webbing.
If the method is done incorrectly the compression forces are very small and probably close to non-existent and the bending/shear forces quite large.
If the method is done correctly, the compression forces can be large and the bending/shear forces smaller and well within the strength of even a very small stick.
BillyBob illustrated this quite nicely in his situation where he used a large diameter stick that was very brittle, but he implemented the method correctly and the stick withstood the forces. But he was still easily able to break the stick with his hands to remove it from the hitch.
Those who sacrifice freedom for safety, have neither.
Do not dig your grave with your teeth. (Unknown)
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