Are the big vendors really getting into hammock insulation?

[signguy]

Make no mistake- if the hammock thing really takes off the big guys will come fast.
Prices will come down, innovation will go up... all good things for the shopper.
For the small manufacture (with no patent or other protections) this can be a death blow. That said- Price is only an issue in the absence of value.
If you build quality, you can actually grow sales.

How many of us got into a sport/activity using some inexpensive over the counter tool to enjoy the new interest only to spend 3,4,10 times more on a new custom item as we got more involved in the sport/activity?
If the cottage folks focus on really high end, custom, and innovative designs they will continue to have a place at the table.

As an example- there are hundreds of different lower priced packs ($80.00-$400.00) that are aimed at hunters. Someone forgot to tell Mystery Ranch and Kifaru (who build everything custom for $600.00-$1000.00 per pack) they were going to go out of business.

[sr1355]

First you're not going to see the likes of HG, UGQ, DH, JRB, WB, AH, or any of the other cottage vendors enter into a retail agreement with any of the large retailers and expect to pay the same low prices you have today. Margins would need to rise significantly to be able to offer the retailer the discount they need to be able to put an item on their shelf and make a buck as well. The retailers certainly aren't going to add a product to their offerings if the consumer can go to the manufacturer site and buy direct for 40-60% less either. If you think any of the cottage vendors are making traditional retailer margins you can rest assured that most if not all of us live on a VERY thin margins.

Retail supplier and consumer buy direct supplier are two different business models, you as the consumer when buying direct from one of the cottage vendors are eliminating I'd say a good 30-40% margin. See if you can find a 20* 850FP sleeping bag for sub $300 at REI using 10d UL fabrics, bet you can't, and those they do have are going to be much closer to $500+ MSRP. Now that's not to say the product cost $500 to make or that REI paid $500 but they probably paid closer to $250-300 which puts it in line with a cottage vendor top quilt. I think you'll always see a cottage market for the higher end of performance but you'll be spoiled with ridiculously low prices for that performance when compared to the main stream vendors and their retail pricing models.

I don't think you'll see a mad rush of large companies jumping into hammock insulations but you may start to see a few offering as they test the waters.

[sr1355]

I think that what you would really see is most of us cottage guys put out of business, not on the shelves at REI. We don't have the mark up on most items to be able to give big retailers the discounts that they demand to give us shelf space. Big industry gets by with cheap labor and cheap materials. None of us cottage folks have that as an option. We would have to drastically raise prices and sacrifice quality to even dream of it being something we would or could do. And most of us do not want that. So instead Chinese companies that are already working to clone our gear will come in at a lower price pint which REI wants and we will be pushed to the side.

Driving the prices down on gear that we already work to give the customer as much value as we can means we are not able to put food no the table and pay the mortgage. I have always said that If I was better off working at McDonalds or Walmart to be able to feed my family then I should be doing that rather than making gear. Try to remember that non of us cottage folks are trying to get rich, we are trying to feed our families the best way we know how. When the big companies come in full force you will absolutely see cottage business suffer and die.

Well said Paul....some days I think a job at Home Depot would be easier and put more $ in the bank at the end of the day. But I truly love making gear for folks know they will use it in the pursuit of their passions so we will fight the fight with each new day...

[hikehunter]

I have a small buisness. There are big and small competitors. I build solar screens and screen rooms. I do custom stuff that the others do not, this gives me the edge.
When it comes to specialized products like hammocks the small buisness guys tend to look at the details much more closely than the bigger guys.
The hammock cottage guys do some custom stuff and will get the decerning customer.

I have always valued quality over many other things. ENO is a good starter product. When you go to places like UGQ, you get the personal service.
I sold electrical supplies at one time...."anyone can sell supplies....I sold service"

[bkrgi]

I will support the cottage vendors here all the way...In fact UGQ will be getting a big order from me at the end of the month despite the crappy CDN $$
I just see it as a long term investment in high quality, high end gear that I do use every day just about and considering what a high end bed/mattress costs these days I figure I am getting a smoking good deal with incredible versatility.

Thanks to all the Vendors on here for there innovation, quality and service...something 'made in China' just does not have

[varga49]

I will support the cottage vendors here all the way...In fact UGQ will be getting a big order from me at the end of the month despite the crappy CDN $$
I just see it as a long term investment in high quality, high end gear that I do use every day just about and considering what a high end bed/mattress costs these days I figure I am getting a smoking good deal with incredible versatility.

Thanks to all the Vendors on here for there innovation, quality and service...something 'made in China' just does not have

Ditto!

[Zilla]

I for one would like the hammock world to stay quiet, low profile and limited to just about as many of us as there are now.
Not to sound selfish but sometimes when an industry like hammock camping grows big it can be more of a bad thing , for example once they start mass production on things like uq's and tq's the smaller cottage venders will get pushed out and that's a bad thing.
I would prefer that type of personal detail and craftsmanship in my quilts and alot of that would be lost once the shelves were full of lowere priced mass produced quilts .
We have a great little comunity here and i fear the day when it gets to the point that every large outdoor retail giant and thier brother try to capitalize off of it and us.
Let's close the doors and keep things just the way they are.!!

[Just Bill]

I wouldn't be too concerned, if anything I would be excited a bit... but not for the reasons the OP mentioned.

On the hammock end of things... Hennessy and ENO have been at REI for some time. And hammock interest has only grown. Exposure creates customers. Period.

I'm a backpacker mainly and not too up on the hammock world, so from my side of the fence...
As backpacking has grown in popularity it has only led to the growth of cottage vendors, and their success.
Zpacks, Enlightened, Gossamer Gear and on... A few of the early folks have stagnated a bit, but that was their choice mainly. More and more enter the market each year.

More users mainly means more beginners. A beginner doesn't know what they want and a cottage vendor must spend a large amount of time attempting to educate this buyer and charge a good chunk of change in the process. They have to devote a large amount of time and losses in exchanges/returns or education that they aren't set up for...

A beginner can hit up REI, hang in an ENO for a 11 months and 20 days and return the product any time.
From there, they can either give it up- in which case they would have been the worst possible customer for a cottage guy anyway...

Or they can get into it, at which point they become the ideal customer for a cottage vendor- educated, appreciative of the subtle differences that define quality, unlikely to return products, aware of what they want, willing to experiment and likely to advertise via word of mouth violently and loyally. As that's the only advertising that a cottage vendor can afford anyway; it's perfect.

An increase in any customer base, and preferably in an educated enthusiastic one is the ideal situation for cottage vendors to thrive. Cottage vendors have done well in backpacking precisely because the customer cannot buy something at REI and look to the cottage companies to innovate. You can buy a marmot or even north face sleeping bag at XYZ sporting goods store for $120 bucks... but some how there are more cottage vendors every few years selling sleeping gear,and existing vendors growing.

Think of it this way... there wouldn't be more than a handful of microbreweries if Sam Adams didn't do the legwork first. Nobody is buying a $6 beer unless somebody teaches them to drink a $3 one first. And you'd likely never have the opportunity to buy or sell such a quality good unless the $3 guy comes first.

I realize this hammock thing feels small and personal, but looking at the change in the backpacking industry as a whole... I think it's a cause for excitement for hammock vendors and users. While the pressure to innovate may at times be unwanted by a vendor, I think almost all the vendors here are tinkerers at heart who are driven and excited by pushing things further. Competition forces vendors to innovate, causes quality to increase. Ultimately the customers here are those who want the best, the newest, the most exciting and will continue to reward innovation with their purchases.

Also... with the increased trust built up over the last decade in the cottage vendor (and a general movement in america towards craft goods in general). The cottage biz model is very solid right now. As mentioned, when a product needs 50-100% markup to work at retail, there is little room for a manufacturer to work on quality or innovation. By skipping retail the cottage vendor can reinvest that difference, reduce their volume (ensure quality and service), and still sell an impeccable good at prices in line with, if not in direct competition with retail prices.

Just study up on GoLite a bit... you don't want to make that mistake.

Otherwise, the more the merrier.

[Zilla]

I wouldn't be too concerned, if anything I would be excited a bit... but not for the reasons the OP mentioned.

On the hammock end of things... Hennessy and ENO have been at REI for some time. And hammock interest has only grown. Exposure creates customers. Period.

I'm a backpacker mainly and not too up on the hammock world, so from my side of the fence...
As backpacking has grown in popularity it has only led to the growth of cottage vendors, and their success.
Zpacks, Enlightened, Gossamer Gear and on... A few of the early folks have stagnated a bit, but that was their choice mainly. More and more enter the market each year.

More users mainly means more beginners. A beginner doesn't know what they want and a cottage vendor must spend a large amount of time attempting to educate this buyer and charge a good chunk of change in the process. They have to devote a large amount of time and losses in exchanges/returns or education that they aren't set up for...

A beginner can hit up REI, hang in an ENO for a 11 months and 20 days and return the product any time.
From there, they can either give it up- in which case they would have been the worst possible customer for a cottage guy anyway...

Or they can get into it, at which point they become the ideal customer for a cottage vendor- educated, appreciative of the subtle differences that define quality, unlikely to return products, aware of what they want, willing to experiment and likely to advertise via word of mouth violently and loyally. As that's the only advertising that a cottage vendor can afford anyway; it's perfect.

An increase in any customer base, and preferably in an educated enthusiastic one is the ideal situation for cottage vendors to thrive. Cottage vendors have done well in backpacking precisely because the customer cannot buy something at REI and look to the cottage companies to innovate. You can buy a marmot or even north face sleeping bag at XYZ sporting goods store for $120 bucks... but some how there are more cottage vendors every few years selling sleeping gear,and existing vendors growing.

Think of it this way... there wouldn't be more than a handful of microbreweries if Sam Adams didn't do the legwork first. Nobody is buying a $6 beer unless somebody teaches them to drink a $3 one first. And you'd likely never have the opportunity to buy or sell such a quality good unless the $3 guy comes first.

I realize this hammock thing feels small and personal, but looking at the change in the backpacking industry as a whole... I think it's a cause for excitement for hammock vendors and users. While the pressure to innovate may at times be unwanted by a vendor, I think almost all the vendors here are tinkerers at heart who are driven and excited by pushing things further. Competition forces vendors to innovate, causes quality to increase. Ultimately the customers here are those who want the best, the newest, the most exciting and will continue to reward innovation with their purchases.

Also... with the increased trust built up over the last decade in the cottage vendor (and a general movement in america towards craft goods in general). The cottage biz model is very solid right now. As mentioned, when a product needs 50-100% markup to work at retail, there is little room for a manufacturer to work on quality or innovation. By skipping retail the cottage vendor can reinvest that difference, reduce their volume (ensure quality and service), and still sell an impeccable good at prices in line with, if not in direct competition with retail prices.

Just study up on GoLite a bit... you don't want to make that mistake.

Otherwise, the more the merrier.

I respectfully disagree, It is not allways the case that more is better, imo, quality is more important than quantity

[FHLupe]

Speaking as a newb, I gotta go with Bill.

Creating a lower price point that is more attractive for those starting out is a good thing. It gets that many more folks to take the plunge, decide they like it, and that many more folks who look to upgrade their gear. The folks currently producing quality products with good customer service? I highly doubt they'll be going anywhere simply because some of the big outdoor vendors starts making TQs/UQs in China and selling them at REI. There are many examples of industries with a mass production side and a very healthy cottage/independent side to the market as well.