Why Continuous Loops?

[joe_guilbeau]

troyji:

Most of the Dyneema cord used for hammock and tarp suspensions is a hollow core weave. This differs from conventional rope in that there is not a core and a sheath.

Dyneema rope offers many configurations including a core surrounded by a hollow weave, climbing rope, marine rope, along with winch applications all use Dyneema. These are generally of a different weave and have a sheath that resists abrasion.

So, climbing ropes use many knots and use Dyneema construction.

My point is that Dyneema such as Zing-It and Lash-It (1.75 mm Dyneema) are hollow braid, very thin and light weight (By the way both of these are exactly the same, construction - just a yellow vs. gray color respectively).

Arborists use the Yellow Zing-It as a throw line (get it? ZING it), as it is light weight and has a finish that adds stiffness and some rigidity to heave.

Splicing is very easy and can put an eye-loop in the end of a rope, or create a constriction when the rope is passed inside a sheath that is created. A long splice bury (72 times the diameter) will actually have a greater than 100% breakage strength that the line that it is made of. Breakage test have borne this out.

The reason that most of the folks on this board use the lightest weight possible (Dyneema hollow braid) is the search for the holy grail of gram shaving. Their whole kit including backpack, food, stove, hammock, insulation, tarp, and clothing can easily break the sub 10-lb barrier for a 2-3 day back pack.

There are many offerings of Dyneema rope with a core and sheathing in the 3 mm to 5 mm diameter range that will do just fine with a variety of knots (Prusik's, Triple Taut-Lines Hitches, E-Star with a buried tail, ect...) that are suitable for hammock and tarp applications. They just weigh more than other options that are available.

Just a matter of personal preference. I will say that friction buries (whoopie slings) are very easy to make, use and deploy. For many on this board a 20-gram weight difference can make or break a decision to purchase.

You can use a length of 1.75 mm hollow core braid Dyneema as tie outs. Put an eye-splice at one end for the stake or pass around a branch, root or rock, and use a 1.75 mm Dyneema tied or spliced in a continuous loop as a Prusik.

Attach the prusik to the tie out loop and it is very lightweight and bullet proof. A monkey fist will prevent the line from slipping thru, and will add some visual bling.

(Although there are those who will look upon this in horror for the additional grams it will add to the system )

I have not evolved that far yet, probably due to my fractured right leg with a Titanium Plate and 9-Torex headed rods that hold it together. Me walking more that a mile at a time becomes.....interesting.

[troyji]

http://www.orosha.org/pdf/grants/osu/runninglines.pdf

This paper was a great read! Very good information on splicing strength. I enjoyed the logging industry case study - it does a great job convincing the reader that this cordage is up to real world application outside of the laboratory.

Strength derived from the bury depends on proper length and technique of the bury. Generally 3-3.5 fids (a fid is 21 x the rope diameter) are required for Amsteel.

Yes, plain buries can work their way out under no load conditions and is the reason rope manufacturers recommend locking methods such as locked brummels and lock stitching.

I suspect the bury requirements are critical. My observations have been that they are rarely followed in the forums when creating small continuous loops. I wonder how quickly the reliability degrades as you reduce the bury length.

Great reply, gmcttr, thanks!

[gmcttr]

If you liked that one...here's another that might be informative.

...and a past discussion that get's into a few strength considerations along with email info from a Samson engineer...https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/...-bend-diameter

[troyji]

...
The reason that most of the folks on this board use the lightest weight possible (Dyneema hollow braid) is the search for the holy grail of gram shaving.
...
I will say that friction buries (whoopie slings) are very easy to make, use and deploy.
...
Put an eye-splice at one end for the stake or pass around a branch, root or rock, and use a 1.75 mm Dyneema tied or spliced in a continuous loop as a Prusik. Attach the prusik to the tie out loop and it is very lightweight and bullet proof.
...

I think you have outlined the complete answer to the question, "Why Continuous Loops?", quite nicely here.

1) Outdoors-men want to shave gear weight.
2) Dyneema and Spectra are ideal because they are lightweight and strong.
3) A loop of rope is desirable for its uses and versatility.
4) Due to the properties of this class of rope, a traditional knot is undesirable because of strength degradation and slippage.
5) Splicing becomes virtually mandatory to bind this class of rope and yields very attractive performance (when executed properly).

Thus the continuous loop is created. The advantages of no bulky knot and prettier loop are merely side-effects.

[SilvrSurfr]

As a Scout leader, I used to carry a small how-to laminated instruction card for common knots. After entering the hammock world, I don't even need it. I splice most everything: whoopie slings, continuous loops, soft shackles, and soft shackle prusiks primarily. The only knots I ever use are the marlin spike hitch, the larkshead (cow hitch) and slippery half-hitch.

[Springer]

Nerding out on this thread! Thanks for the links. Subscribed!

[troyji]

If you liked that one...here's another that might be informative.

...and a past discussion that get's into a few strength considerations along with email info from a Samson engineer...https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/...-bend-diameter

Fascinating discussion on how bends affect rope strength.

In summary, try to keep your pin (the thing you are tying your cordage around) at least 2x the diameter of your cordage. When dealing with fixed loop terminations, try to keep the length of your eye at least 3x the diameter of the pin.

[troyji]

As a Scout leader, I used to carry a small how-to laminated instruction card for common knots. After entering the hammock world, I don't even need it. I splice most everything: whoopie slings, continuous loops, soft shackles, and soft shackle prusiks primarily. The only knots I ever use are the marlin spike hitch, the larkshead (cow hitch) and slippery half-hitch.

Are you suggesting that you have eliminated utility paracord from your gear? I can't imagine ever getting away from using paracord with knots. Even if I move to spliced amsteel for my suspension (which is highly likely after this discussion), I will still lean heavily on knots for almost everything else.

[SilvrSurfr]

Are you suggesting that you have eliminated utility paracord from your gear? I can't imagine ever getting away from using paracord with knots. Even if I move to spliced amsteel for my suspension (which is highly likely after this discussion), I will still lean heavily on knots for almost everything else.

What's paracord?

Paracord was never part of my gear. Other than an emergency bracelet, I've never bought or owned any paracord. I'm not sure how it became so popular (probably the Internet and survival groups). When I was a Scout, we used to use it to make shelters and lash primitive furniture together (which the LNT crowd would now frown upon), and for tons of other things.

For general purpose cord (like for hanging crappy tarps), nowadays I carry small amounts of nylon cord (100 ft. for $2.50 at Home Depot), but mostly I use Zing-It 1.75 mm (like for bearbagging).

As mentioned before, I pretty much lead a knot-free existence. Whatever the MSH or larkshead won't handle, the slippery half-hitch will (and you can always double up the slippery half-hitch). Attach something to the hammock ridgeline? Soft shackle or soft shackle prusik. Hang something on a tree? Continuous loop or dogbone and a carabiner.

If you love knots, you can find plenty of uses for them. If you don't love knots, you can pretty much eliminate most of them while hammock camping. I just don't have much use for them.

[Phantom Grappler]

I agree with our experts, as you know as much as I love knots, splicing is the way to go. Good quality splices are permanent neat and strong. And maybe best of all splices usually translate to Ease of Use and faster setup in the trees, as your splice is usually done at home and then you are done. That can help you use less knots in the field and most of them can be pre-tied(prusik diamond knot larks head). I agree splicing is the way to go even though I use knots sometimes in the field. Good luck troyji .