Orders

[silentorpheus]

As a musician who has ordered several instruments made to my specifications, the luthiers always charge a deposit of a certain amount and when done the rest of the balance is due before shipping. As a contractor I also work in the same way where I take a deposit and when the job is completed I get the remainder due, I usually have the deposit cover the cost of material. I think that would be a great way for the cottage vendors to also do business if you have to wait an extended amount of time for them to make the item.

I agree - that would be nice. Though I bet the luthiers that you are dealing with only take as many orders as they can realistically handle at any given time, and nothing is done or started until after initial communication - i.e you call or email them, discuss back and forth what you want, and then once all details are worked out and agreed upon, they invoice you for the deposit to start the work, and bill the remainder when finished. However once you move beyond that small, ultra custom model to the next step, where you select options on a website and submit your order without making contact first, that changes the game. I'd wager that if a busy vendor like HammockGear switched to a model where whatever you input on their site sent a form to them, and they had to contact each person directly to confirm the order, establish a time frame, and issue a personal invoice for a specified deposit amount, their workflow would come crashing to a standstill, the wait times for their quilts would soar astronomically, and so would the prices - if they order materials in bulk to keep the costs where they are, and they aren't making a large volume of quilts because the ordering process now takes 4 times as long, it no longer becomes economically sound to operate that way.

The important part, in my mind, is that you do your research, not just into the quality of the gear, but into HOW a vendor does business, before you click 'pay now'. It's pretty well documented how many (most) of these vendors operate, what their normal wait times are, how well they communicate, or how easy (or difficult) they are to reach when there are questions or problems. So there's not a lot of excuse for someone who enters into a transaction with one of them and then is suddenly surprised by how things proceed - unless it's out of the norm. I can honestly say that I don't recall ever being surprised by how a transaction with one of the cottage vendors that are well known on this site played out. Did I wait a long time for an item, or put off ordering something for months until I could finally get someone live on the phone to discuss? Sure ... but that never took me by surprise, and if I didn't like it I would have ordered from someone else.

Also, there are plenty of options out there for most of the pieces of gear that are available. So if you do your research and don't like the way one vendor conducts business - don't buy from them. The best way you can exercise your opinion is with your wallet. Don't like the fact that they charge up front? Buy elsewhere. Don't like the fact that you can't find a number to call? Find someone who has a phone line. There will always be people that will give their business, regardless of the hurdles, if the quality is worth it - but that's up to each individual to decide for themselves.

[silentorpheus]

My two cents is I always check out lead times before I place an order. If it is long or I have ANY issues communicating with a vendor be it here or some place else, I do not place an order with them. If I am going to pay someone $ for a product that is "custom" and they can not give me timely communications before I spend $ then I have no confidence they will do so after the fact.

Yes, I understand that many of these places are one man shows. Yes, I know exactly what it takes to run a small business..been there, done that. But if your customer base is so large that you can't communicate effectively and deliver in a timely manner then you need to reduce the orders you are accepting.

I also know how hard it is to get my $ back via a credit card or PP after a couple of months have gone by so I will NOT place an order with any vendor that charges my account before the shipment takes place. If a vendor charges my card before shipment then I immediately notify the CC to stop payment then contact the vendor to work out the issues.

If I use PP then unless communications from a vendor gives me a specific time frame I expect shipment notice within 5 business days. If I don't have that, I notify the vendor they have 24 hours to ship before I contact PP to get my funds back.

This is exactly what I was referring to in my last post. While far more restrictive and rigid then how I would personally proceed, I 100% respect this (not that you need my approval, but for conversation's sake ... heh). You make the call as to what your expectations are, do your resarch beforehand, and don't shop unless your conditions are met/satisfied. Does that mean that your options are limited to some extent? Sure does - but that's your personal choice, and you excercise that choice with your hard earned dollars. That's how it should work.

[dkurfiss]

This is exactly what I was referring to in my last post. While far more restrictive and rigid then how I would personally proceed, I 100% respect this (not that you need my approval, but for conversation's sake ... heh). You make the call as to what your expectations are, do your resarch beforehand, and don't shop unless your conditions are met/satisfied. Does that mean that your options are limited to some extent? Sure does - but that's your personal choice, and you excercise that choice with your hard earned dollars. That's how it should work.

\\

Thanks...I am very rigid when it comes to my hard earned cash. When I was not on a fixed income it was easy for me to piddle away 1000.00 but retired and living on a limited income makes me very careful.

Yes my choices are limited but we have a few vendors out there making hammock quilts and such that do maintain an nice inventory of items. Those are the folks I seem to go back to each and every time.

[Dirt Dobber]

In my business I don't charge for normal work until it is completed. Anything custom is prepay for materials. It has taken a while to get to this point in my business where I can carry a large supply of inventory. However none of my sales are online. Before I had my custom prepay in place I would evaluate the job order materials only to have the customer change their mind. Now I'm stuck with expensive material I may not be able to use for a while.

I run my business off a cell phone which does not work at my house. The only internet we can get is satellite and the last time I checked I could not do voice over the Internet. So cheap business phone lines are not an option. I imagine many of the vendors are the same.

I talk to very few customers it is mostly text. And yes they will call when a question pops in their mind at 3 pm or 3 am.

[Peter_pan]

Well into our eleventh year, Jacks 'R' Better LLC is still shipping the same or next business day...Almost daily we answer the surprised customer who expects Cottage business shipping delays and sends an email inquiry as to how long the wait is with a note that, "their order already shipped or is shipping later that same day"...

Pan

[meckelangelo]

I don't want to speak for other cottage vendors, so these are strictly my views. In fact, I am not even speaking on behalf of the rest of my family, or Hammeck. I handle all of the website configuration for our business, so I believe my experience allows me to lend some insight...

I have not come across an ecommerce platform that allows a customer to submit an order without paying at the time that the order is placed. I have done quite a bit of research, so it may be possible that such a platform exists, but I have not seen it. That presents a major limitation. Now, it would still be possible for us to set up a request form where a user would submit an order, and we could bill them for it later. However, this present two problems.

Firstly, it adds overhead. By overhead, I mean time invested that is not directly involved with completing the final product. Adding overhead adds cost (and further increases wait times). Customer communication eats a ton of our time. It's time we're happy to invest, but we would be remiss if we did not make our customers aware that we spend a great deal of time composing emails and answering phone calls. Coordinating payment manually adds time for us, as well as the customer. Quite honestly, I think most customers would find that this second step detracts from the purchasing experience. I may be wrong, though.

Secondly, it puts us on the hook. We are making custom products, and what may interest you, may not be of interest to anyone else. If we invest our time and resources into a hammock, and a customer elects not to pay for it when we are ready to ship it, it hurts us. In the end, we would be forced to account for these losses by increasing prices. We could certainly mitigate these losses by implementing a deposit. However, as mentioned, I am unaware of any ecommerce platforms that support this, so we would have to do it manually. This further adds to the first issue I mentioned, so this adds even more overhead, and thus more cost.

Quite frankly, most customers prefer the experience of a cart and button. They don't want to fill out a form and have the added step of receiving and paying an invoice. It's an extra step, that many would find to detract from the experience. I realize that this is contrary to your view. I could be wrong, but my experience lends me to believe you are in the minority. However, that doesn't mean you are unheard. I think if you asked most cottage vendors, they would be willing to work with you. For example, we would be willing to charge you a deposit, and then send you an invoice upon completion, but prior to shipment. But, you would have to ask. I doubt that we're the only vendor that would do this. It is, however, a more manual process, which is why I believe we would lose A LOT of business if it was the only way we handled orders.

If your concern boils down to the long wait time, rather than the stage at which you are charged, I am afraid there is little we can do to help you. Someone indicated that businesses should stop accepting orders when they have a backlog. I don't agree with this. So long as a business is comfortable with their backlog, and a customer is willing to wait, why would they stop taking orders? It benefits neither the business nor the customer. It's not as if the business will complete existing orders any faster. In fact, once the business starts taking orders again, I think you will find that the influx of new orders will add MORE uncertainty to delivery time. The compounding factor is that it takes TIME to complete orders, and at certain times of the years, orders come in faster than a business can custom build the products, so a wait time results. I'm certain that we lose business because customers are not willing to wait 5 weeks. It's something we're very aware of, and we are constantly working to improve processes to complete orders faster. However, as we grow, the orders come in all the faster... The cycle doesn't seem to end... We're still a small shop. 3 of us work full-time outside of Hammeck, 1 is a full-time student, and only 1 is (more than) full-time for Hammeck.

We appreciate all of our customers very much, and we really appreciate those that are understanding of the limitations of purchasing from a cottage vendor such as ourselves. However, please don't assume all "limitations" are set in stone, or that we are not willing to earn your business.

[SilvrSurfr]

Well said, Meck.

[Freakin Farmer]

When ordering a custom product I have no problem paying up front. It's not like going to Walmart and grabbing something off the shelf. The vendor is taking a risk by taking the order. They have to cover the risk of time and product costs up front. It is a way of insuring themselves against a canceled order.

[Mike04345]

I don't want to speak for other cottage vendors, so these are strictly my views. In fact, I am not even speaking on behalf of the rest of my family, or Hammeck. I handle all of the website configuration for our business, so I believe my experience allows me to lend some insight...

I have not come across an ecommerce platform that allows a customer to submit an order without paying at the time that the order is placed. I have done quite a bit of research, so it may be possible that such a platform exists, but I have not seen it. That presents a major limitation. Now, it would still be possible for us to set up a request form where a user would submit an order, and we could bill them for it later. However, this present two problems.

Firstly, it adds overhead. By overhead, I mean time invested that is not directly involved with completing the final product. Adding overhead adds cost (and further increases wait times). Customer communication eats a ton of our time. It's time we're happy to invest, but we would be remiss if we did not make our customers aware that we spend a great deal of time composing emails and answering phone calls. Coordinating payment manually adds time for us, as well as the customer. Quite honestly, I think most customers would find that this second step detracts from the purchasing experience. I may be wrong, though.

Secondly, it puts us on the hook. We are making custom products, and what may interest you, may not be of interest to anyone else. If we invest our time and resources into a hammock, and a customer elects not to pay for it when we are ready to ship it, it hurts us. In the end, we would be forced to account for these losses by increasing prices. We could certainly mitigate these losses by implementing a deposit. However, as mentioned, I am unaware of any ecommerce platforms that support this, so we would have to do it manually. This further adds to the first issue I mentioned, so this adds even more overhead, and thus more cost.

Quite frankly, most customers prefer the experience of a cart and button. They don't want to fill out a form and have the added step of receiving and paying an invoice. It's an extra step, that many would find to detract from the experience. I realize that this is contrary to your view. I could be wrong, but my experience lends me to believe you are in the minority. However, that doesn't mean you are unheard. I think if you asked most cottage vendors, they would be willing to work with you. For example, we would be willing to charge you a deposit, and then send you an invoice upon completion, but prior to shipment. But, you would have to ask. I doubt that we're the only vendor that would do this. It is, however, a more manual process, which is why I believe we would lose A LOT of business if it was the only way we handled orders.

If your concern boils down to the long wait time, rather than the stage at which you are charged, I am afraid there is little we can do to help you. Someone indicated that businesses should stop accepting orders when they have a backlog. I don't agree with this. So long as a business is comfortable with their backlog, and a customer is willing to wait, why would they stop taking orders? It benefits neither the business nor the customer. It's not as if the business will complete existing orders any faster. In fact, once the business starts taking orders again, I think you will find that the influx of new orders will add MORE uncertainty to delivery time. The compounding factor is that it takes TIME to complete orders, and at certain times of the years, orders come in faster than a business can custom build the products, so a wait time results. I'm certain that we lose business because customers are not willing to wait 5 weeks. It's something we're very aware of, and we are constantly working to improve processes to complete orders faster. However, as we grow, the orders come in all the faster... The cycle doesn't seem to end... We're still a small shop. 3 of us work full-time outside of Hammeck, 1 is a full-time student, and only 1 is (more than) full-time for Hammeck.

We appreciate all of our customers very much, and we really appreciate those that are understanding of the limitations of purchasing from a cottage vendor such as ourselves. However, please don't assume all "limitations" are set in stone, or that we are not willing to earn your business.

1st I did not intend for a cottage business to bill upon shipping. That would not be fair to the cottage business.

What I was talking about was why not wait until a week before your actually going to START WORKING on the order. Than send the invoice, The Cottage vendor would not start their order until they receive payment. I can see what your saying about increased overhead.

I can see if a custom order where it contains material than is not normally stocked needing a deposit or even full payment before beginning the work. BUT just because you happen to be out of material that you normally stock does not make it a custom order. The options I choose and the color and fabric weight etc is what makes it custom.

I do not think a cottage vendor should stop taking orders because they have so much work. This would result in loosing customers who really like a product and in turn could put the vendor out of business.

I love my Dream Hammock and My Hammock Gear Quilts and Dutchware. Some I had to wait for and some shipped quickly. All was worth the wait. I will continue to do business with cottage vendors because I believe in supporting American made and they build fine products.

I was just wanted to know how others felt about this subject.

Thanks for the feed back Meckelangelo Happy Hanging

[meckelangelo]

1st I did not intend for a cottage business to bill upon shipping. That would not be fair to the cottage business.

What I was talking about was why not wait until a week before your actually going to START WORKING on the order. Than send the invoice, The Cottage vendor would not start their order until they receive payment. I can see what your saying about increased overhead.

I can see if a custom order where it contains material than is not normally stocked needing a deposit or even full payment before beginning the work. BUT just because you happen to be out of material that you normally stock does not make it a custom order. The options I choose and the color and fabric weight etc is what makes it custom.

I do not think a cottage vendor should stop taking orders because they have so much work. This would result in loosing customers who really like a product and in turn could put the vendor out of business.

I love my Dream Hammock and My Hammock Gear Quilts and Dutchware. Some I had to wait for and some shipped quickly. All was worth the wait. I will continue to do business with cottage vendors because I believe in supporting American made and they build fine products.

I was just wanted to know how others felt about this subject.

Thanks for the feed back Meckelangelo Happy Hanging

Yeah, I think we're mostly on the same page, then. I would love to be able to charge just prior to beginning work on an order, but without adding overhead or impacting the buying experience. Unfortunately, for small cottage vendors, that's near impossible. Any automated process would require us to retain your payment information, which I don't think you would be keen on. As it stands, even PayPal doesn't offer anything beyond invoicing, but that's different than post-dated transaction triggering. Any post-order transaction would involve action on the part of the customer, and thus the overhead. As I said, this is something we're willing to do on a per-customer basis, but the automated payment handler makes more sense as the default process.

I certainly appreciated reading the conversation concerning this topic. It made me aware of some reservations that folks have, that I had not considered.

Thanks, same to you!