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  1. #1
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    Down vs synthetic

    Perhaps it's been discussed ad nauseum, but this you tube video is a recent presentation.
    My opinion stems from Boy Scouts in the 70s, so I thought it was time for an update.
    What do you think these days?

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mRXShaa52gw

  2. #2
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billsandysprings View Post
    Perhaps it's been discussed ad nauseum, but this you tube video is a recent presentation.
    My opinion stems from Boy Scouts in the 70s, so I thought it was time for an update.
    What do you think these days?

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mRXShaa52gw
    LOL! that should get some interesting responses! As for me, I can see the pros and cons of both, but actually lean a bit towards Climashield for those deep wilderness trips where I can not bail easily and be back to my car or a nearby town within a days hike. Plus, I probably have a bias that I can not shake from a 30 day NOLS course in the WY mountains 30 years ago. Back then, those folks virtually would not allow down on summer trips because experience showed them that sooner or later more than 1 person was going to get wet, and that had proven to be a disaster enough times that they just did not take that chance. (and sure enough, a bunch of us got wet, from sweat while pushing ahead in a June snowstorm if nothing else) Of course, treated down may well change my mind about all of that.

    I actually am also one of the rare ones(the only one?) who does not believe even 800 down is significantly lighter than CS for the same warmth, particularly for > 25F quilts. So to me that sometimes makes it tough for me to take the extra risk of down, though less volume remains a significant advantage to down in this day of very small packs!

    I wonder how long it will take for some one to tell me to just keep my down dry and I won't Have a problem? Or that if I'm not competent enough to keep my down dry I shouldn't be in the woods? Well, I've seen it all in 30 years of back country travel, fortunately more stuff happening for other folks than me. Every thing from tree limbs breaking in snow storms and puncturing tarps, to high $ tarp or tent factory seam sealing failing about a week into the woods, but way more than anything just condensation and sweat.

    It also should not take long for some folks to mention what they feel is the myth of warm when wet, that nothing is warm when wet. While I will agree that nothing is AS warm when wet as dry, I still have got some very useful warmth from wet synthetics, way better than nothing, and then they dry so much quicker. I just demonstrated that to myself one more time a few days ago, by accident, during our recent snow storm. I had a hard time choosing what I wanted to take on that hike, as these days I take every chance to test vapor barriers in all kinds of conditions, maybe even just working in the yard, but what to wear over it?

    Anyway, I ended up wearing my VB shirt with fuzzy stuff lining, and a very light weight old faithful Polarguard hooded jacket with a used to be WPB shell ( really thin, this hooded jacket only weighs about 12-14 oz) and I pulled a pair of PG pants over my jeans. Also very thin, weighing only 8 oz size XL- about the weight of a pair of long john pants. But it was only about 31-32F, not real cold- and it proved to be WAY too warm while hiking fast through new snow. The pants had no water proofing whatsoever, and soon appeared soaked from the wet heavy snow at barely freezing. But they still kept my legs toasty. My WPB shell on this 7 year old well used jacket(actually, a couple of small holes in the shell) quickly wet out and looked very wet indeed. After about a mile I was getting too hot, and decided to let the hood down to vent. I made a beginner mistake and a big load of snow went right down my back! YOWZA, that felt cold, and of course I was now very wet inside. After about another mile, I was still just too hot, not really walking all that fast but probably working harder in the 8" of new snow. So I finally took the jacket off and just hiked in the super thin VB shirt. Of course, carrying the jacket only got it even wetter. The VB was not quite warm enough by itself, so after another 1/2 mile I put the jacket back on and again quickly got very warm. I was now sweating profusely inside the VB shirt even with it and the jacket 1.2 unzipped. My legs were just right, though the totally not waterproof or not even DWR over pants were quite wet.

    I got back to the house and by now the jacket was dry on the inside, and dried completely in a short time. The pants were a lot wetter, and took a while longer to dry, but they kept my legs totally warm, even worn over the cotton kills blue jeans. So, far as I'm concerned, at least somewhat warm when wet. EDIT: or at least, my body heat kept the inner layers close to my skin dry enough- most of the time- that I was plenty warm even thought he garments appeared quite wet, especially the pants. I have had hikes in similar conditions, but different clothing, where I nearly got hypothermic. Also, refer to the Mt. Rogers group winter hang from a couple of years back, when a few guys had some close calls while hiking in a rain turning to snow storm. I think some of those guys would have done better if they had been wearing PG or CS or PL clothing. OK, sure, the VB shirt was a huge contributor, but hey, if it even added 15-20F, I still would have been hiking at(equivalent of) 50F or below and quite wet, with just a thin, wet 13 oz jacket and wet 8 oz pants with cotton jeans underneath. I don't know about Y'all, but experience shows me that I could have been quite chilled in those conditions. BTW, my very wet fleece gloves kept my hands warm enough.

    So that's how I feel about it, but still, treated down may well make all of that moot, leaving only cost as an advantage to CS.
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 02-28-2015 at 22:35.

  3. #3
    altruistguy's Avatar
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    Well, I, for one, was sold on synthetics until I was 49 (2013). Then I met Paul of UGQ.

    All my life until that point, I'd been thinking that -- since there is always a chance of rain on any campout -- and tents (especially in the old days of canvas when I was a kid) were notoriously NOT water-tight -- only somebody who had money to burn (and/or, a fool) would use down!

    But I've now hung about 900 nights (!!) over the past seven years or so. That includes severe thunderstorms, snow, and basically anything that mother nature has to offer. And as far as am aware, I've never gotten a single drop of precipitation inside my hammock except for condensation and frost from my breath -- and that has quickly dried without much effort. Properly set-up modern rainflies are spectacularly effective at protecting you from precipitation.

    Since I was a kid, I'd thought that, once down got wet, it was REALLY bad. First off, if this happens when in the bush, you are toast (or rather, ice). Second, (I thought) since the down would tend to bunch up when wet, the thing was basically ruined if you got it wet -- you'd basically have to throw it away.

    But then I met Paul of UGQ. He educated me about how to properly dry a down quilt (use lots of clean tennis balls and ultra-low heat in a regular clothes-dryer). Further, he showed me that modern quilts are made of very water-resistant material in the first place (he demonstrated by actually pouring water on a brand new quilt (!!)). Now, after about a year and a half of virtually full-time hanging, I'm definitely a convert to down.

    I still might be reluctant to use down on a canoe/kayak trip (though as BillyBob said, the water-repellant down may make even that reservation moot now). But aside from that, especially for the car-camping and back-yard camping that is all that I do, down is wonderful.

  4. #4
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Altuistguy says:
    But I've now hung about 900 nights (!!) over the past seven years or so.
    Wow, not only 900 nights, but 900 dry nights! That is a bunch! And quite a testament to the ability to keep down dry. Although, like you said, that was car camping. But even backpacking, as long as you know you can get out if you have to, then really who cares, plus the odds of experienced, careful folks getting their down wet is very low even on extended trips. Though I have witnessed condensation inside the shell become a problem. But I really do highly suspect that possible problem will all be a thing of the past with treated down. I need to put mine to the test at least re: external moisture. Harder to test for internal condensation.

    BTW, especially for us up off the ground hangers hanging high and dry under a roomy tarp, my occasional preference for synthetic over untreated down- is way more for clothing than sleeping quilts or Pea Pods. Though you still have to watch for condensation in the sleeping gear(I have seen the results of that), that does not compare to having to hike up a steep hill with a pack in the rain or blowing wet snow when it is often very tough to avoid sweating.

  5. #5
    New Member TNStrider's Avatar
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    This is an interesting topic of discussion and debate. The truth is both down and synthetic have their place. I use a KAQ synthetic underquilt, which I love. Down is wonderful and at this point, the cost/benefit for me just isn't there....who knows in the future. I have been thinking about a topquilt for quite some time and the down vs synthetic question hasn't been answered for me yet. Whatever gets me in the woods faster is probably where I will end up. I am enjoying all the opinions and insights everyone is providing on the subject.

  6. #6
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    Thanks for the discussion. I am about to buy my first UQ. Been wondering what would be the best. I've got it narrowed down to the KAQ new river or HG incubator. Cost is a concern because I have other gear to buy. But I am wanting to reduce weight and bulk. Based on my research it's mostly bulk that you save with down. I will only be backpacking a few miles at a time at most and dual sport motorcycling also.

  7. #7
    New Member MnRecurve's Avatar
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    I went with KAQ for the cost...just getting started. Thanks for the great discussion, good things to think about.

  8. #8
    New Member TNStrider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by briarjumper12 View Post
    Thanks for the discussion. I am about to buy my first UQ. Been wondering what would be the best. I've got it narrowed down to the KAQ new river or HG incubator. Cost is a concern because I have other gear to buy. But I am wanting to reduce weight and bulk. Based on my research it's mostly bulk that you save with down. I will only be backpacking a few miles at a time at most and dual sport motorcycling also.

    The KAQ New River meets your cost requirements. Plus, the New River is a high quality piece of kit that is light and really not that bulky....for ROI New River is hard to beat. That being said if you have your heart set on a down quilt I've only heard good things about HG quilts. Best of luck

  9. #9
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    Another thing to consider is the moisture you produce through sweat and breath. While not as big an impact as rain or snow, I don't think I've ever had a totally sweat-free night and always found my sleeping bag a little heavier in the morning and damp on the inside, despite any other layers I'm wearing.

    As I'm now shopping for a TQ, I thought I was settled on the HG Burrow, but I just can't pull the trigger (and it's not only the cost of down). But I find myself thinking about the AHE Owyhee and the EE Prodigy almost daily, because I know that even though the quilt will be bulkier and slightly heavier (though, like Bob, I don't find there to be much of a weight difference), I can trust that I will stay warm no matter what the conditions, and I can count on it again the following night.

    One big pro for down though is that I find is a big difference-maker in any lightweight down and synthetic jacket I own the down is much more breathable than PrimaLoft One when temperature rise unexpectedly. The synthetic turns into a furnace inside whereas the down seems to regulate my body temp more. Not sure if the same is true WRT top quilts...

  10. #10
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    Great video in the link, by the way. Really gets you thinking...

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