Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 35
  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    US
    Hammock
    WBBB
    Tarp
    WB Superfly
    Insulation
    Pad->TQUQ
    Posts
    174

    Bottom Insulation: Failure Modes

    Having been a recent convert from a sleeping pad to an underquilt, I got to thinking about why folks are so enthusiastic about underquilts. That enthusiasm seems to stem from the "comfort" that results form an UQ versus a pad. Having slept 10 nights with an underpad, though, I was wondering if that apparent "comfort" was enough to really justify all the extra complexity of an UQ. I wanted to get down to a more pertinent question that, at least to me, appears to be more often overlooked - the failure modes. Since the purpose of an UQ or pad is to provide insulation from the air below, I started thinking about ways that the bottom insulation could fail to provide this insulation.

    Here is what I was able to conclude regarding the inability of a particular bottom insulation to function:

    Underquilt:
    - Inadequate suspension along sides
    - Inadequate suspension along ends and sealing
    - Strong wind blowing a gap or moving the UQ ends/sides
    - Improper alignment
    - Moving around to cause a gap near the ends
    - Moisture inside the UQ

    Pad:
    - Improper alignment
    - Pad moving around (I have not experienced this with my double layer hammock)

    To me, it seems the failure modes of the Pad are much easier to fix than those of the UQ - making the Pad a more robust bottom insulation. Furthermore, once the pad is aligned and the sleeper is on top of it, I don't see how the pad could fail - assuming it is wide enough at the shoulders.

    What am I not considering or missing?

  2. #2
    SilvrSurfr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Jersey Shore, NJ
    Hammock
    Dutch PolyD
    Tarp
    HG Winter Palace
    Insulation
    HG 0, 20, 40
    Suspension
    Dutch Whoopie Hook
    Posts
    14,716
    Images
    3
    You're missing condensation and comfort. I get tons of condensation on a pad, so much so that I'll only use synthetic insulation with a pad. As for comfort, a pad isn't even in the same ballpark with an underquilt. I have yet to experience any of the UQ failures you've mentioned. I have a tarp with doors and haven't the least concern about moisture inside the UQ. If the air was that saturated with moisture, synthetic users with pads wouldn't be better off.
    Last edited by SilvrSurfr; 01-25-2015 at 13:46.
    "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." Ralph Waldo Emerson

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Hammock
    WB XLC
    Tarp
    WB SuperFly
    Insulation
    HG 20 Inc/Burrow
    Posts
    839
    Images
    5
    Inadequate suspension on sides or ends is something that should get caught before purchase or at a minimum addressed before going out. Analogous bullets under the pad section might say "Pad not wide enough" or "Bought wrong pad". I'd argue that isn't a deployment failure so much as bad planning. If you meant "inadequate use (of a sufficiently capable) suspension", I guess that is another story. In either case you should add "Under/overinflated pad" to the list of potential pad deployment failures. You also aren't considering the condensation problem/challenges that a pad can bring to the table.

    Lastly, the risks you outlined don't reflect consequences or probabilities of what you are defining as a "failure". For instance, once an UQ with an adequate suspension is properly hung a somewhat restless sleeper has a lower chance of moving it around and causing discomfort (or a "failure"), than they have of moving around a pad and causing discomfort there. That's been my experience so far anyway. So pad movement (failure) during the night might be both higher risk and higher consequence than UQ movement.

    We are in agreement that there are undoubtedly a few more things to consider and extra competencies required to effectively use an UQ. So far my experience has been that it is well worth that extra effort.

    Edit: Surfr beat me to the condensation thing...

  4. #4
    Senior Member DuctTape's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Hammock
    Claytor
    Tarp
    MacCat delux Spinn
    Insulation
    CCF and Quilts
    Suspension
    web and buckles
    Posts
    2,079
    Images
    2
    And I have the complete opposite experience as silvrsrfr, which is why I use pads exclusively in the winter (below zero F). The wind issue with UQs is not so much moving it out of place is it stealing the heat, which is mitigated with a right sized tarp and/or UQ protector/sock. There is no right solution for everyone, but there is probably a right one for for each of us.
    "There's a whisper on the night-wind, there's a star agleam to guide us, And the Wild is calling, calling . . . let us go." -from "The Call of the Wild" by Robert Service
    My Trail log: http://ducttapeadk.blogspot.com/

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    US
    Hammock
    WBBB
    Tarp
    WB Superfly
    Insulation
    Pad->TQUQ
    Posts
    174
    So why do so many folks recommend using a pad with a partial length underquilt? That seems like any condensation would create issues with a down topquilt. If that is going to be an issue with my TQ/PUQ system, I'd like to know about it before hand.

  6. #6
    Boothill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota
    Hammock
    WARBONNET 1.1 DOUBLE, DIY BRIDGE
    Tarp
    DIY ARGON CAMO/BMJ
    Insulation
    DIY DOWN TQ/UQ
    Suspension
    STRAPS/BUCKLES
    Posts
    1,465
    Quote Originally Posted by tundracamper View Post
    So why do so many folks recommend using a pad with a partial length underquilt?
    most of the time the pad is only a short one that goes under your feet to mid calf or so in the scenario you describe

    boot
    The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us. ~Bill Watterson

  7. #7
    Senior Member OneClick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    IN
    Hammock
    DIY 10.5' HyperD 1.6
    Tarp
    Warbonnet, SLD
    Insulation
    Hammock Gear
    Suspension
    WB Straps+Buckles
    Posts
    13,158
    Images
    20
    I had to try both before shooting the other down. Once I got an underquilt, I quickly realized it was the only way to go for me.

    Getting into a hammock with a UQ gives your back the same cozy feeling you get when pulling a thick downy comforter over you in bed.

    I sometimes wish a pad would work, though. That would cut down a lot of bulk and a little weight too.

    I would tell any newcomer to try a UQ and not to give up. It seems like it's always a quick fix if there are any problems. I didn't run into a UQ issue until 3 YEARS! That surprised me, but it ended up being a looser suspension on a new UQ I purchased. 15 second fix tightening the main suspension.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Statesville, NC
    Hammock
    DIY Bridge
    Tarp
    Old Man Winter
    Insulation
    Balloons
    Suspension
    Whoopies
    Posts
    465
    I had a few problems with pads. A one-piece pad which is thick enough to be effective is large and bulky. If the pad does not compress underneath you, it insulates well, but it's not compressible. That makes for a large bulky object which is hard to get in a backpack. A pad is also usually flat stuff. It rolls, but does not conform to the complex curves of a gathered-end hammock with a person in it. The condensation issues are a real problem with a full-size pad. A small pad in either end still allows for large areas of the system to vent moisture. I use a 3/4 length UQ under my bridge hammock. It's a double-layer hammock, so it's easy to slip a small pad under my feet. Most of the moisture comes from breathing and from the torso area, so venting in the middle and at the head works just fine.

    What conditions have you used the pad? Condensation is funny stuff. It becomes a problem in some warm conditions, and in some cold conditions, but not always. Well, always if it is cold enough.

    DavyRay
    I love the unimproved works of God. - Horace Kephart

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Ga.(Macon area)
    Hammock
    11 Ft Dutch Hexon 1.0 Sidezip
    Tarp
    12 ft HG Quest
    Insulation
    3/4 Phoenix20
    Suspension
    Spiderpolybeetles
    Posts
    1,442
    Dutch makes some handy hardware that helps to keep your underquilt "drawed up tight".Now that I have sprung for down there is no going back to the pad,well,maybe in the summer time...

  10. #10
    Senior Member FireInMyBones's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Piedmont, SC
    Hammock
    Bonefire™ Bridge
    Tarp
    Bonefire™ Shadow
    Insulation
    Bonefire™ UQ
    Suspension
    Bonefire™ Deluxe
    Posts
    2,795
    Images
    46
    Quote Originally Posted by tundracamper View Post
    Having been a recent convert from a sleeping pad to an underquilt, I got to thinking about why folks are so enthusiastic about underquilts. That enthusiasm seems to stem from the "comfort" that results form an UQ versus a pad. Having slept 10 nights with an underpad, though, I was wondering if that apparent "comfort" was enough to really justify all the extra complexity of an UQ. I wanted to get down to a more pertinent question that, at least to me, appears to be more often overlooked - the failure modes. Since the purpose of an UQ or pad is to provide insulation from the air below, I started thinking about ways that the bottom insulation could fail to provide this insulation.

    Here is what I was able to conclude regarding the inability of a particular bottom insulation to function:

    Underquilt:
    - Inadequate suspension along sides
    - Inadequate suspension along ends and sealing
    - Strong wind blowing a gap or moving the UQ ends/sides
    - Improper alignment
    - Moving around to cause a gap near the ends
    - Moisture inside the UQ

    Pad:
    - Improper alignment
    - Pad moving around (I have not experienced this with my double layer hammock)

    To me, it seems the failure modes of the Pad are much easier to fix than those of the UQ - making the Pad a more robust bottom insulation. Furthermore, once the pad is aligned and the sleeper is on top of it, I don't see how the pad could fail - assuming it is wide enough at the shoulders.

    What am I not considering or missing?
    The issues listed above for an UQ can be resolved with integrated insulation, or through lots of practice.

    I agree that a pad can cause condensation, but it shouldn't be enough to cause serious issues with a TQ footbox if used in conjunction with a partial length quilt. My biggest issue with a pad is the clammy feeling that I get when laying on one. My body's moisture can't pass through the hammock and that can be a little off putting, but it isn't too bad.

    For comfort, I much prefer an UQ, particularly an integrated one. However, I will use a pad from time to time to supplement my UQ. I use a 1/8" thick flimsy pad that conforms to my body. That helps with comfort.
    -Jeremy "Brother Bones"
    Quote Originally Posted by FLRider View Post
    ...he's a mountain goat crossed with a marathoner.

  • + New Posts
  • Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

    Similar Threads

    1. Can you over do bottom insulation?
      By William36 in forum Bottom Insulation
      Replies: 4
      Last Post: 09-19-2013, 11:45
    2. Replies: 10
      Last Post: 03-29-2012, 14:21
    3. Bottom insulation
      By Goldowl in forum Warbonnet Hammocks
      Replies: 7
      Last Post: 02-08-2011, 15:03
    4. Top vs. Bottom Insulation
      By JerryW in forum Under Quilts
      Replies: 21
      Last Post: 08-08-2009, 01:21
    5. How much bottom insulation?
      By linuxhack in forum General Hammock Talk
      Replies: 7
      Last Post: 06-30-2009, 08:34

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •