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  1. #11
    Senior Member ripstopbytheroll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    Kyle, can you get access to the technical and/or install sheets? They are not around to the general public as far as I know. The Gold is good enough to start looking at versus climashield. Specifically, quilting requirements...

    Really my question is,
    Can you simply sew parallel rows of stitching 6" o.c.? Or does it have to be a box pattern like on the patagonia nano puff?
    I'll see what I can do about getting some more technical install guides and report back. I do have an REI jacket made with Primaloft Sport (i.e. Silver) that doesn't have the box pattern. However, the quilting requirements are only 24" for the Silver.
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  2. #12
    Senior Member hk2001's Avatar
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    A quick reference on how to do quilting loops:

    https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/...Quilting-loops

    Basically, the purpose of the loop is to stop the insulation on the interior from shifting/splitting/bunching.. I had to dust off this link from my bookmarks.. it's been awhile!

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by hk2001 View Post
    A quick reference on how to do quilting loops:

    https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/...Quilting-loops

    Basically, the purpose of the loop is to stop the insulation on the interior from shifting/splitting/bunching.. I had to dust off this link from my bookmarks.. it's been awhile!
    Forgive me if I am wrong- correct me please if I am;
    This link refers more to the Ray Jardine method of quilting- great trick, but, wrong application of it in this case.
    Apex is continuous filament- picture a 5000 yard spool of fishing line all tangled up into a blanket-so it works great with the Jardine method.

    Primaloft is a short filament- 5000 pieces of fishing line one yard long all bunched up. Point being- you need the quilting to prevent the insulation itself from falling apart. The Ray Way quilt technique is no good on short filament stuff.

    My understanding of it in a simple way.

    I believe the Primaloft Gold is getting closer, I have some but haven't tried it yet... Waiting to hear more on larger applications.

  4. #14
    Senior Member miyanc's Avatar
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    I am thinking of a black rock style hat? All this quilting talk makes me feel like I dont know anything about quilting, or maybe its that I just dont know anything about quilting. On a side note, I am being tasked with Halloween costume adjustments. So I guess I know something.

  5. #15
    Senior Member ripstopbytheroll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    Forgive me if I am wrong- correct me please if I am;
    This link refers more to the Ray Jardine method of quilting- great trick, but, wrong application of it in this case.
    Apex is continuous filament- picture a 5000 yard spool of fishing line all tangled up into a blanket-so it works great with the Jardine method.

    Primaloft is a short filament- 5000 pieces of fishing line one yard long all bunched up. Point being- you need the quilting to prevent the insulation itself from falling apart. The Ray Way quilt technique is no good on short filament stuff.

    My understanding of it in a simple way.

    I believe the Primaloft Gold is getting closer, I have some but haven't tried it yet... Waiting to hear more on larger applications.
    Nothing wrong with simple explanations. I think that's a great way of illustrating the difference between CS and Primaloft.
    - Kyle

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  6. #16
    Senior Member WV's Avatar
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    I think the quilting loops that MAD777 describes here may help keep the insulation from shifting, but their primary purpose is to maintain a uniform thickness of the insulating layer. This is different than the sewn through quilting that some are referring to.

  7. #17
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ripstopbytheroll View Post
    Well the temp rating is going to depend on a lot of different things - materials, construction, volume into which you're putting the insulation, etc. However, from talking to different gear makers I have heard that on average 6 oz/yd2 of Primaloft Gold would create something in the neighborhood of a 40-50 deg quilt/bag. .
    Rip, the KAQs from AHE that used 6 oz per sq yd(OSY) Climashield XP were rated for 30F, and many users found that to be quite conservative. The CS 6 oz Apex quilts are rated at 25F, even though in another place it is claimed Apex 5-10F warmer than XP at the same weight. Which has always been odd to me, as the CLO rating is identical for the two versions of CS. Still, it appears that quite a few folks can use these under quilts a good bit lower than 25F. And the PL CLO is a good 10% higher, so it should be even warmer for the weight than the CS, though quilting weight will have to be added far as I know.

    But, that may only apply for UQs, which can be pulled snugly against our backs. It seems to me when I read reviews of CS TQs they are not quite as warm for any given weight. Possibly because a sheet of CS will not drape down on us to fill nooks and crannys as well as down might? So a TQ might not be as warm, at least with CS, don't know about PL. So maybe the ratings you have been told about is for TQs or bags? For an UQ, just based on my experience plus some other folks, I would expect a 6 oz layer to be warmer than 40F, at least with CS of .82 CLO. In fact, I have done mid-hi 40s with a 2.5 oz layer and was toasty. Beside a lake no less with 98% humidity.

    Quote Originally Posted by OutandBack View Post
    Hi BB, this sounds like pretty cool stuff. Could you help a newbie out? What does "CS at .82 CLO and CLO .92" mean or stand for?
    If others know the answer feel free BB may mis this question.

    thanks,
    Quote Originally Posted by brino View Post
    I assume he means CS (ClimaShield) has a CLO rating of .82 ... and that was getting close to the down stats. But, this new Primaloft has a CLO of .92 ... which basically means better warmth to weight and compressability ratio. The real trade off being, CS is easier to work with and need NO quilting. Where as Primaloft requires some quilting for peak performance.
    Yep!

    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    CS, climashield (apex typically)
    Clo, http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clothing_insulation
    OSY= ounces per square yard of insulation

    O+B, my old style Yeti UQ uses layers of CS that I add or remove as needed.(This is an incredible UQ BTW) There is a base layer that is permanently sewn in, sewn around the edges. This layer is CS XP that weighs 2.5 OSY. and is about .6" thick. Since each layer in this short torso UQ is approximately 1 sq. yd. in size, then each layer weighs about 2.5 oz(of insulation only of course, not counting shell weight)

    So, looking at Thruhiker, http://thru-hiker.com/materials/insulation.php
    I see that the CS Apex is rated at CLO .82/oz. IOW, 1 square yd. of CS at a thickness that weighs 1 oz ( 1 OSY) will have a CLO of .82( I calculate a loft of .24" per 1 OSY). If you double the thickness and weight of that sq. yd., the CLO will be 1.64. The CLO is always .82 per oz, with one oz of CS covering 1 sq.yd and this layer will also be about .24" thick.

    Now, notice that they offer CS Apex in a 2.5 OSY and 5 OSY. The batch that weighs 2.5 OSY has a total CLO of 2.5 oz * 0.82 clo/oz = 2.1 total CLO and loft of .6".

    They are all .82 CLO per osy, so you just multiply base CLO X total weight of 1 sq.yd. of the layer. This is the weight I have used to be toasty into the 40s in the Yeti, even though loft was a measley .6"( .24" for 1 oz* 2.5 oz=.6"). I know, it doesn't sound right does it, only .6" loft warm below 50F? But that is my experience.

    So, if you look at the 5 OSY batch, (or aka 5 oz CS) then Total CLO = 5.0 oz * 0.82 clo/oz = 4.1 with a loft of 1.2"

    Two layers of this 5 OSY(or total 10 oz of insulation in my torso Yeti UQ) would have a total CLO of 8.2 with a loft of 2.4".

    Here are some threads over at Thruhiker http://www.thru-hiker.com/x/index.ph...viewthread/25/
    discussing CS's surprising warmth for little thickness and where Thruhiker guy( Ace) explains about CLO/warmth: For a draft free situation, "The rule of thumb for clo values is that 2 is good to around 40 degrees, 4 to 20 degrees, and 6 to 0. ".

    This is from a man who sells both CS and down insulation and kits. Notice that he says a CLO of 2 is warm at roughly 40F, and my 2.5 osy layer in my Yeti has a CLO of 2.1, and I was toasty mid 40s in 98% humidity, tarp pitched way high and wide. Pretty much as predicted(YMMV!)

    Also:
    http://www.thru-hiker.com/x/index.ph...viewthread/67/ ( I am WindRiverMan in these threads)

    Hope that helps. Clear as mud?

    Bill
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 10-23-2014 at 00:39.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by WV View Post
    I think the quilting loops that MAD777 describes here may help keep the insulation from shifting, but their primary purpose is to maintain a uniform thickness of the insulating layer. This is different than the sewn through quilting that some are referring to.
    Yar, that's the difference I was saying...
    My understanding is the loops work for continuous filament insulations. (like climashield) If you think of the insulation like a wool blanket that you are trying to "pin" in place so it doesn't move within the shell then the loops are perfect. They prevent excess movement and eventual damage to the insulation without compression.

    Primaloft is a bit more like a sheet of down. If you tug on the edge you will get little down like tufts that pop off- even though it comes in a blanket style package from the supplier. Eventually it can degrade into little pieces. If you tug on Apex it is tough to pull a piece. So I have always thought of Primaloft as being closer to down in that the sewn through quilting is required to stabilize it and prevent use from turning it into a down quilt with no baffles.

    Mad777 does say he used the primaloft in a loop quilting style- I wonder how it holds up?

    In theory- by the time you sew down the primaloft- the loft is reduced enough to make it apples to apples in warmth to the Apex- so why do all the extra work?

    But- if you could reduce the sewn through quilting, or eliminate it- then it is a better insulation.

    I agree 100% with BillyBob on the ratings.
    Clo is a different system, but the simple way I learned was 1 CLO= 10 degrees. The only variable is your starting temp.
    Most sleepers are at 70 degrees as a baseline, as in wearing shorts and t-shirt and you doze off on the couch you won't wake up in 70 degree temps. So add 2 CLO of insulation and you are good to 50*. A warm sleeper like me is fine to 60*, so that is my base. Although if you put on a good base layer that easily adds 1 CLO- so with clothes on you start at 60*, add a 2 CLO quilt- and you're good to 40*

    A 2.5oz layer of Apex is 2 CLO.
    A 3.0oz layer of Primaloft Gold is 2.75 CLO.
    But, the value of any insulation is the ability to trap air, so if you have to sew through the primaloft on a 6"x6" grid you reduce the thickness enough that the CLO is roughly even. If you don't quilt, in theory, eventually the primaloft degrades into synthetic down and shifts around. The sewn through quilting prevents this.

    Kyle-
    Assuming you do the quilting-
    One layer of Primaloft Gold should easily match Apex in terms of warmth- So BillyBob's ratings-
    1 layer= 50/40
    2 layer= 30/20
    3 layer= 10/0
    No clothing/Clothing
    This assumes that wind and poor fit don't come into play.

    This should be safe to tell customers and make the product more useful.

    Primaloft is still the preferred insulation for clothing- if you can get some more info on the quilting, or maybe other's experience on how far you can push it, it could be the better quilt material as well. Apex is supposed to be quilted every 2', but tons of folks have used it completely un-quilted at 50" wide with no practical loss of warmth or durability. I have to imagine you could push Primaloft a bit as well- I just don't know any one who has done so- it would be great to hear from Mad777 to see how his quilt held up. Not that I'm into throw away gear, but if you pushed the primaloft and it only lasted a few seasons instead of forever, I'd make the switch. It only needs to be quilted to one layer of fabric to stabilize it, so you could quilt the body side and leave the shell loose in an UQ- although I do note that most clothing leaves the quilted side out, but not sure if that is for looks or performance. I suspect looks.

    My personal opinion- 30 and below- down is lighter. But above that the baffles(and their weight), and extra work needed make using down both cost and weight prohibitive. Add in precipitation above freezing and the synthetics are better than down- Apex really is warm when wet, Primaloft even more so. A 40* down bag gets a little silly- the down is spread so thin that cold spots are too easy to get. Synthetics really shine in that 35-60 range that so many of us travel in, especially on longer trips where down is more likely to wet out over time from humidity.

  9. #19
    Senior Member ripstopbytheroll's Avatar
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    This is GREAT info BB and JB!! Having a rough guideline of degC/clo for different applications is very useful. I'm definitely going to compile some of this and put it on the website as a reference for people to use.

    The original 40-50 degC I mentioned was for a commercially available sleeping bag. I later found out that when the final prototype was tested, they ended up having to back off the insulation because the original estimates were too conservative (i.e. bag turned out to be warmer than anticipated). That seems to jive with everything you guys are saying.

    What about having something lighter, say a 1-2 oz/yd2 gold that would allow more fine tuning of the temp rating? Another option would seem to be the Black line that has a clo of around 0.65 I believe. It's also a lot cheaper.
    Last edited by ripstopbytheroll; 10-24-2014 at 11:59.
    - Kyle

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  10. #20
    Senior Member ripstopbytheroll's Avatar
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    Since we're discussing the relative merits of Primaloft and CS, I want to mention that we've also been approved as a dealer of CS. To quilt or not to quilt, that is the question.
    - Kyle

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