twelve (12') foot versus eleven (11') foot tarp?

[OneClick]

This, however, is bunk. Sorry, just sayin'. Not for a cat cut hex anyway.

Absolutely not, it's simple physics.. An extreme example - if I get a 12x9 rectangle of material (any, even cuben) and hang a 30x20 piece the same way, you're saying it's bunk? It's just impossible to say both are the same. Hell, even a piece of steel would show the same to a certain effect.

Of course a 11 vs 12 won't be so extreme, but I'm just proving a point.

[dakotaross]

Absolutely not, it's simple physics.. An extreme example - if I get a 12x9 rectangle of material (any, even cuben) and hang a 30x20 piece the same way, you're saying it's bunk? It's just impossible to say both are the same. Hell, even a piece of steel would show the same to a certain effect.

Of course a 11 vs 12 won't be so extreme, but I'm just proving a point.

Sorry, I shouldn't have used extreme language like "bunk". Its just that unless I'm misinterpreting what you're saying - which perhaps some of that is going on in this thread - you altered your setup because there was a practical reason why your longer tarp couldn't get as taut as a shorter one. That's just not my real world experience, though I've only used cat cut hex tarps because they are so easy to get taut.

[OneClick]

Sorry, I shouldn't have used extreme language like "bunk". Its just that unless I'm misinterpreting what you're saying - which perhaps some of that is going on in this thread - you altered your setup because there was a practical reason why your longer tarp couldn't get as taut as a shorter one. That's just not my real world experience, though I've only used cat cut hex tarps because they are so easy to get taut.

Even with a cat cut, you can't overcome the "bowl" effect from material sagging in the middle. That's going to depend on the material type as well. But in the end, the larger the tarp, the more weight, the more material there is to control. More surface area to catch the wind, etc. That's why you don't see pullouts once the tarp gets to a small enough size.

I've never used anything but a cat cut either; they just make sense.

[mychal]

Even with a cat cut, you can't overcome the "bowl" effect from material sagging in the middle. That's going to depend on the material type as well. But in the end, the larger the tarp, the more weight, the more material there is to control. More surface area to catch the wind, etc. That's why you don't see pullouts once the tarp gets to a small enough size.

I've never used anything but a cat cut either; they just make sense.

I don't think the two of you are arguing about the same thing. If I may, I believe mark was responding to the "bigger is always better" comment, by pointing out that, generically, and not necessarily related to the "does a longer tarp actually, in practice, limit you location choices enough for it to be significant" thread topic.

I think he was talking about general floppiness and stretchiness, more so than how it impacts what trees it'll fit between.

More importantly, I think secondmouse took us down a path with a more hostile and emphatic tone. Let's get back to a thread where folks who use knots and folks who use Dutchware can still sit together by the campfire.

[dakotaross]

Oh, I think secondmouse does sound frustrated at the difference in understanding between him a several others, but I would not be so quick to call it hostile. Nor do I think mark6 has been that way, and I certainly hope no one takes my "argumentativeness" as being that way. Not trying to be argumentative as much as discuss something to the point where there is mutual understanding - might end up being me that gains the understanding, I don't know yet. Sometimes this takes a bit longer when you have folks being "emphatic" as you say. Doesn't mean that the discussion shouldn't occur, that there is no benefit to having it occur.

[Caminante]

I have an 11' hex and a 12' winter. I would consider the space required to hang a 12' tarp vs 11', and the sag of the panels to be non-issues. Granted, there are a lot of trees where I hang, so finding two trees >12' apart is never an issue for me. All things being equal in terms of cat cuts and pitching method, droopy side panels aren't an issue with an extra foot of ridgeline.

For me, these are the pros and cons to a 12' tarp:

Pros:
1) Extra coverage: I find 12' especially nice for hanging my backpack from the head end of my hammock with plenty of coverage all around. That's about the only pro, but it's an important one, especially in poor weather. With my 11' hex, I'm only comfortable in rain with my backpack underneath my hammock.

Cons:
1) Weighs more, the exact increase being dependent on the material that you use. It's roughly an extra 1 to 1.25 yds of material, so 0.9 to 2 ounces extra.
2) Must be hung higher to avoid interference w/hammock straps. This may be an issue if you want to pitch with the sides of the tarp close to the ground. A 12' tarp will be hunt ~3-4" higher than an 11' tarp on an 11' hammock w/83% SRL. You can also use some of the new wider tarp fabrics that are available to nullify this con, but you'll add more weight.

For me, the extra coverage offsets the cons and I like a 12' tarp. I'll probably try 11'5" the next hex or winter tarp I make just to see if that's a better compromise.

[dakotaross]

Even with a cat cut, you can't overcome the "bowl" effect from material sagging in the middle. That's going to depend on the material type as well. But in the end, the larger the tarp, the more weight, the more material there is to control. More surface area to catch the wind, etc. That's why you don't see pullouts once the tarp gets to a small enough size...

I certainly can't disagree in the technical sense. I would maintain that in ordinary wind and rain (weight of rain adding to the effect), that it still should be a very minor difference - if we're talking all other dimensions the same. Not only that, but the extra coverage does allow some hanging options that would mitigate any encroachment on your hang from the tarp sagging. Certainly, in a heavy wind there can be exaggerated effect, but that's what pulls are for.

I've seen a lot of folks not crank down their RL and guy lines, and as a result, they are not as taut as they could be. I don't know if they are trying to protect their investment or what, I just do what was recommended by Brandon with his tarps. Not saying you're doing that, but that's the only way I see a longer tarp having any practical adverse effect from sagging in the middle. And I repeat, that's what pulls are for. Note that I don't have them on my 12' Tox - I carry clip on pulls but rarely use them.

To those concerned, I won't belabor this point any longer and I've said enough on this thread.

[Secondmouse]

I don't think the two of you are arguing about the same thing. If I may, I believe mark was responding to the "bigger is always better" comment, by pointing out that, generically, and not necessarily related to the "does a longer tarp actually, in practice, limit you location choices enough for it to be significant" thread topic.

I think he was talking about general floppiness and stretchiness, more so than how it impacts what trees it'll fit between.

More importantly, I think secondmouse took us down a path with a more hostile and emphatic tone. Let's get back to a thread where folks who use knots and folks who use Dutchware can still sit together by the campfire.

apologies if I sounded hostile, not my intent. I was getting frustrated (thank you Dakotaross) by people confusing hammock length and ridgeline differential with tarp ridgeline length.

nonetheless, I still think the 12ft vs 11ft tarp discussion is overblown. the only circumstance where that would be a hard limit is literally where the only trees available are spaced exactly less than 12ft and greater than 11ft. I probably don't hang as much as some of you but in my experience hiking the Appalachian and Pinhoti Trails and general woods camping, I have never seen this.

in reality though, where hammock length might enter into this discussion, is minimum span using whoopie slings. to me, this is a bonafide limit to tree spacing, certainly more than significant than the 1 foot difference in tarp length...

[Secondmouse]

I have an 11' hex and a 12' winter. I would consider the space required to hang a 12' tarp vs 11', and the sag of the panels to be non-issues. Granted, there are a lot of trees where I hang, so finding two trees >12' apart is never an issue for me. All things being equal in terms of cat cuts and pitching method, droopy side panels aren't an issue with an extra foot of ridgeline.

For me, these are the pros and cons to a 12' tarp:

Pros:
1) Extra coverage: I find 12' especially nice for hanging my backpack from the head end of my hammock with plenty of coverage all around. That's about the only pro, but it's an important one, especially in poor weather. With my 11' hex, I'm only comfortable in rain with my backpack underneath my hammock.

Cons:
1) Weighs more, the exact increase being dependent on the material that you use. It's roughly an extra 1 to 1.25 yds of material, so 0.9 to 2 ounces extra.
2) Must be hung higher to avoid interference w/hammock straps. This may be an issue if you want to pitch with the sides of the tarp close to the ground. A 12' tarp will be hunt ~3-4" higher than an 11' tarp on an 11' hammock w/83% SRL. You can also use some of the new wider tarp fabrics that are available to nullify this con, but you'll add more weight.

For me, the extra coverage offsets the cons and I like a 12' tarp. I'll probably try 11'5" the next hex or winter tarp I make just to see if that's a better compromise.

personally, I think being able to hang tarp higher with the same lateral coverage as a benefit. I like being able to get underneath without having to go all hobbit in there. especially in porch-mode, I appreciate having the tarp higher.

all in all though, I only prefer a 12ft where I'll be stationary/camping. if I'm hiking, the program is set up, get water, eat, and then be asleep asap, I don't mind my tarp right against the hammock ridgeline...